Putting in space

[solar bud]

As I write more and more tracks and find production easier, I've found myself putting more space in tracks, and where I used to try to cram in as much as possible to get that kind of sensory overload kind of effect, more and more I'm finding that a bit crass and actually not very psychedelic, and I'm putting in more space and concentrating on making the parts and sounds that I do put in of a higher quality.

Has anyone else found this with their writing? Maybe it means I am getting lazier or tending more towards the minimal, but I find that I feel a track is finished and says what I want it to say without cramming quite so much in, these days.

I will listen back to a track quite often and hear an empty space, and think, what shall I put in there? But more and more the answer is coming back, 'leave it as empty space'.

Anyone else get this?

[Fromem_Ory]

We aim to get a sort of 'base groove' down when building up a track from scratch, a self-sustainable loop that can carry the dancefloor on its own. It takes a lot of the pressure off putting sounds in, as you can place them for rhythmic purposes, little tickles here and there, as opposed to using sounds to carry the whole thing. The better the kick, bass, percussion and some sort of restrained other loop, the easier it is to pull off that space.

Sorry, does that make sense?

[Faction]

Aw, I thought this topic was going to be about zero-gravity golf.

I think the number of sounds a track 'needs' depends on how well each sound contributes to the track. Whilst sensory overload is just as valid a schema for a tune as any, it's by no means the only one, and in any case the sense of overload you get from that kind of track is dependant on the context of its sounds - you can only really get something sounding really big in contrast to something that sounds smaller. It's very very difficult to write something that goes RAAAAA effectively, all the way through. Conversely, for a minimal track to work well, every single sound in there needs to contribute to the max, which makes keeping things interesting/making the track flow something of a challenge.

Bit philosophical, but even the idea of empty space in the context of music is a bit problematical, as inherent in that space is the memory of the preceding sounds, and the anticipation of the sounds to come. Nothing exists without context, even nothing.

[Rayola]

I was drawn to this thread by the image of astronauts playing golf on the moon and got a bijou thesis on space. I love the internet.

[solar bud]

We aim to get a sort of 'base groove' down when building up a track from scratch, a self-sustainable loop that can carry the dancefloor on its own. It takes a lot of the pressure off putting sounds in, as you can place them for rhythmic purposes, little tickles here and there, as opposed to using sounds to carry the whole thing. The better the kick, bass, percussion and some sort of restrained other loop, the easier it is to pull off that space.

Sorry, does that make sense?

Yes, that makes complete sense, and one thing which I like about good techno is that in order to be interesting it really does have to be all about rhythms which can carry the dancefloor on their own. Working that attention to the rhythm track into trance means you get music which is hypnotic and infectiously danceable but still has room for space, as it were.

[solar bud]

It's very very difficult to write something that goes RAAAAA effectively, all the way through. Conversely, for a minimal track to work well, every single sound in there needs to contribute to the max, which makes keeping things interesting/making the track flow something of a challenge.

Bit philosophical, but even the idea of empty space in the context of music is a bit problematical, as inherent in that space is the memory of the preceding sounds, and the anticipation of the sounds to come. Nothing exists without context, even nothing.

I think this is really what I am getting at, you can make a track sound harder and more full-on by filling it up with sounds, but if you are not careful you can lose the power of the track by overdoing it, and actually you can make the track deeper and more powerful by putting in space. It's all about the contrasts as you say.

I suppose my point really is that space doesn't just happen where you haven't put any sounds in. It's something that you can put into a track to create a mood and effect all of it's own, in the right place.

[Biggins]

space is important for sure my usual workflow is put the structure of the tune together with all the stuff crammed into it in it that i can get in, then I'll go back and identify what i think are the best bits and I'll cull what i think is extraneous. This cull process invariably creates gaps in the track structure and I'll try and retain some of theis space when I'm working with what i've left alone.

(interestingly, to me, this is how i write essays and do a lot of my work.....)

anyways.......a lot of my favourite psy (both full on and prog) has a lot of space in it, is generally carried by the K/B and Percs and the trippy bits seem to be accentuated by the space 'surrounding" them. The space helps you appreciate the sounds i reckon. psy also sounds better, to me, played outdoors and I reckon that the space "thing" is one of the reasons why. "Protonica - Floating Point (Morning Mix)" <3 is a good example of a tune that has a lot of space and poottles along in a very satisfying manner.

[JPsychodelicacy]

Aw, I thought this topic was going to be about zero-gravity golf.

+1

Generally when starting a section I try to get the fundamentals right before I start layering leads - to me this means getting all the low-end stuff nicely balanced as well as a few percs and incidental twizzles here and there. If that sounds interesting enough for about 16 bars on its own, then I know I'm getting somewhere. I don't know whether it's specific to techno, but a rule of thumb I was taught a long time ago is that a section should stand on its own without the leads - i.e. muting all the leads and leaving just the percussion progressions playing should be interesting enough to hold the listener's attention for the section's length.

J.

[solar bud]

The really depressing thing is when you mute all the leads and it actually sounds better, lol

[Biggins]

The really depressing thing is when you mute all the leads and it actually sounds better, lol

LOL i have a couple of tunes where this has happened and actually quite like it.....

[Nanook]

The really depressing thing is when you mute all the leads and it actually sounds better, lol

Only depressing when you#d thought five mins earlier... "hang on, i'm just getting hang of leads"

[solar bud]

Yeah I was only joking about it being depressing!!

I've got loads of tracks which ended up with a 'minimal techno' section because of this!!

The other one with trance is when you cut all the percs except for the kick drum, and together with the bass and leads it sounds really clean but dark and moody ambient throbbing trance kind of thing. And then you don't want to put the percs back in again.

[Verb]

Yes I can definitely identify with your sentiment.. My stuff is becoming more minimal, and I am paying a lot more attention to each sound, as well as how all the sounds interact together to create movement. Some of my favorite tracks are so minimal, and maybe have 1 or 2 lead sounds that come in for a minute or two over and 8 or 9 minute track, but the anticipation and the tightness of the groove just keeps you waiting for more.. I don't think it's getting lazy, I think it's part of maturing as a producer.

[silky]

Definitly just a natural progression My stuff was appauling a few years ago. Cosmosis did a piece about this very thing on his website, no idea if its still there. Putting in too many sounds is something that you do when you realise the track is a load of shit, but think it's because not got enough going on so you add more shit on top of the shit thats already there and end up with a mass of blurry shit so deep you cant seperate the different shits from each other its just one big piece of shit.

Then you mature and realise that all you essentially need (as Fro_memory mentioned) is a great kick/bassline which makes you move on it's own - then, and only then, proceed with "other" bits which again, individually, should sound fantastic with nothing else in place but yet, all kind of depend on each other to be brought alive....

Yes.

[Fromem_Ory]

Exactly. No matter what style you're going for, if your kick, bass and percussion are good enough that you can sustain full energy on those elements on their own then you'll find yourself in a place where you don't have to 'make the energy' out of other things, and you have a lot more options.

[nab]

i think that filling tracks up tracks has two reasons.

1, the sounds really are shit and you're trying to cover them up or 2. it may be that the sounds are good enough but you don't think so (maybe because you are so familiar with them or because you just aren't confident that you could possibly be making good music), so you fill the track up.

i reckon a general life confidence and the ability to push yourself forward are probably very useful attributes when making dance music because you will naturally have that confidence in what your doing and that may translate into stronger music, leading to an ability to keep things more minimal. i mean i hear a lot of music that makes me wince but because the producer or dj is lovin it, so is everyone else. i also think if i was more confident my track output would be much higher as i would care less about how good it was and wouldn't spend ages fucking around mixing and adding more stuff.

i like the style of really full expressive music too, ozrics, shpongle but you have to be really talented to pull it off. takes a bag load of mixing to get all the sounds sitting right too.

[SystemInk]

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

[solar bud]

i like the style of really full expressive music too, ozrics, shpongle but you have to be really talented to pull it off. takes a bag load of mixing to get all the sounds sitting right too.

I can think of far worse acts to aspire to. The fact that you have chosen these shows a massive confidence IMHO.

Personally I need people to look up to musically, I need the challenge. You don't have to be the best producer to be confident, you just have to enjoy what you are doing and improve at every opportunity.

[solar bud]

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Maybe I am on the right track then!