Question for mastering bods

simple really - I know that phase rotators can play a part in some mastering chains as a way to claw a few dB back in a pretty transparent way.

Would there be strong objections to someone applying a phase rotator to indivudual elements in a mix - or does this fuck with your working more than is confortable.

Best to establish this before I mix the rest of this tune methinks!

You can do anything for as long as it sounds good - this advice I got from the likes of ya matey

Go for your life, IMO. I've heard phase rotators do spectacularly good things to eg. mixes containing lots of distorted guitars.

sweet.

An unexpected answer that greatly improves my kick and bass line.

which one are you using? link me up!

you already have several.

A phase rotator is just a static, 0% feedback phaser.

typical 4 stages at around or abouts 200hz - but don't let that put you off trying orher settings - typically, less is more, and for my money even numbers of stages sound better than odd.

I'm using the one that came with studio one, but any would do as it is none moving and no feedback, so they will all sound very similar - caveat for sound toys phase mistress which colours everything due to it's overload characteristics ... which sounds like a marrage made in heaven actually.

Am I right in thinking an all pass filter would also be the tool for this job?

ahhh

ahhhhhhhh

psy-fi - yup.

And just to be uber clear, I'm not doing this to reduce gain, I'm doing this because it isn't transparent.

You dirty bitch.

No no no, well yes, but not this time.

I just noticed that there is something funny going on in the bass of some of my favourite kicks.

Etnoscope and Master Blasters both exhibit it sounds like multiple sines overlapping - but that isn't it - so I'm just trying to emulate it - I thought this might be something to try.

Still haven't got near the attack sound in Etnoscope kicks - seriously, wtf! This is impossible! His drum sound is ridiculously tightly produced. I'm 'making do' with the very front of the attack from a LinnDrum. This is great, and fills a roughly equivalent space, but blunty isn't as good.

I've even tried splitting peaks into a seperate audio channel and treating then conpletely differently then remerging them - impossible!

why would this be used when volume can simply be lowered? (in mastering etc)
and what kind of effect does it make if not transparent?

The difference is that it will compress the signal in a way, lowering peak amplitude without affecting perceived volume so more headroom = louder mix.

The effect is subtle. Tricky to put into words - a slight toughening, warming, and complication of the sound - I assune you have a phaser though, why not give it a go, you can always take it off if you don't like it

The way I visualise it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), a phase rotator adjusts the phase of frequencies around a certain area, or areas, by an amount related to the number of poles it uses. This would have the affect of realigning the waveforms of those frequencies so that the constructive/destructive interference relationships they have with the rest of the spectrum are changed, and with them therefore the amplitude of the entire signal at any given time. This is very similar to the way EQ works, and a phase rotator can be used in some of the situations where EQ might be the first choice of process. Used appropriately it can help bring focus and clarity to sounds; used inappropriately I guess it might work as a muddifier.

This is the type of thing that happens when you listen to other peoples kick drums too much.

Are you talking about the kicks on Etnoscope - 'Way Over Deadline'? If you are - and I'm not saying this is the case, merely stating the possibility - the tightness and clarity might potentially have something to do with the mastering.

Ahem.

If only it were possible to check their premasters to see if they exhibit the same characteristics...

Of course I am

I know you did the mastering and it's a bang up release.

Two of my favourite tracks in recent years on there.

I can't believe it was anything other than a pleasure technically to work on?

Interesting reading. Thanks folks.

Speakafreaka - Thanks for the tip i tried a few phasers and its very obvious on kicks,
i couldnt get it sounding great with phasemistress at 100% wet.. it always caused a thinner sound no matter where the freq control was. and it doesnt have the same effect when not fully applied
,uhbik-p has 12/28/42 stages, i tried it with that and there was i different but not stronger effect, easier to dial in.
a guy made a freeware vst for this - Christian Buddle Phase Rotator

also this is a great thread on gearslutz if anyone wants more info
Phasers & phase rotation, one of the most powerful tools for bass shaping - Gearslutz.com
and allpass filters explained
Allpass Filters - Blog - Universal Audio

here is a quick experiment i made with uhbik-p on almost all channels, (the peaks seem lower with it ON but it is also seems louder)
OFF:
http://snowdogg/nophaserotation
ON:
http://snowdogg/phaserotation

Sry, to make it clear for me as non native english speaker:
You mean a non moving phaser on the kick can make subtle changes which can make it seem louder (and more pleasing) while being at same peak as before?
The same might be for the bassline?
Did i get that right?

And what exactly does the phrase mean: "it is´nt transparent"??

Are reaktors allpass filters good for that job, too?