A shift to left?

Risky

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I always try to keep up with events back in Germany and just saw this on the bbc:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4125832.stm

Interesting that the left seems to be becoming more and more popular, as east Germany's resentment of west-controlled politics at last becomes a real issue. This is great news, as I think it will diffuse the neo-nazi bomb that's brewing over there. Possibly an indication of a slight shift towards traditional socialist policies in European politics? Or hype?

Would be interested in any views on this.
 

Squagnut

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Hmm... Neo-Nazi attitudes are often firmly entrenched in the minds of those that hold them, so this could manifest more left-right polarisation such as we can see in the USA at the moment. But... it's probably good news, as Germany could do with some balance.
 

Risky

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Sguatnut said:
Hmm... Neo-Nazi attitudes are often firmly entrenched in the minds of those that hold them, so this could manifest more left-right polarisation such as we can see in the USA at the moment.
There is quite a radical left-wing movement in the east at the moment in order to counteract the neo-nazis, but it doesn't really help (no better than neo-nazis, as we all know violence tends to breed more violence). My parents moved to Leipzig last year, right on the edge of a very left-wing area of town, they said it can be a bit scary when the neo-nazis try to hold a rally :Sad:

Like you said, I do think Germany needs a bit more balance, and I'd like to see a bit more 'real' socialism in mainstream politics rather than this kind of grey, murky system that seems to be rife in in a lot of Europe at the moment. I'm no expert in politics as you can probably tell, but I'd be a lot more interested in it with characters like them sitting in parliament...
 

crikey

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Risky said:
I always try to keep up with events back in Germany and just saw this on the bbc:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4125832.stm

Interesting that the left seems to be becoming more and more popular, as east Germany's resentment of west-controlled politics at last becomes a real issue. This is great news, as I think it will diffuse the neo-nazi bomb that's brewing over there. Possibly an indication of a slight shift towards traditional socialist policies in European politics? Or hype?

Would be interested in any views on this.
No, socialisms been well and truly killed off by globalisation. No western European government can run a high tax, high welfare economy without seeing big business disappear, taking their jobs with them. The welfare state is dead, you hippys better start looking for a job.
 

Risky

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Hehehe, I'm no hippy (I've even got a job! :Wink3: ) just don't like the current generation of spineless politicians...as far as the UK goes we've just probably lost our most high profile, widely respected left-w(h)inger :Sad:
 

JPsychodelicacy

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crikey said:
No, socialisms been well and truly killed off by globalisation. No western European government can run a high tax, high welfare economy without seeing big business disappear, taking their jobs with them. The welfare state is dead, you hippys better start looking for a job.
You can get around that to a degree by being less dependant on foreign business (a tactic that worked for France for a while). Also remember that globalization as a process is something that is heavily dependant on the US economy, which while not in decline to an obvious degree, is sustaining itself by loaning dollar bonds to China and Japan. If the Chinese decide to pull the plug at any point, for any reason, the US economy will be FUBARed, along with sizeable chunks of the global economy.

Mark my words, if something isn't done this *will* happen, and even if something is done, it's likely to happen anyway due to the current momentum. A $236bn surplus converted to a $415bn deficit over 4 years - purely to finance largesse to existing billionaires and corporate welfare - is a pretty sickening freefall.

J.
 

trancetheory

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No its not - not by a long shot.
Most EU countries having a starting take of between 15-20%, unlike us who have a starting tax of 0% (income under ~£4500, not sure the exact figure).

The world Average equivilant VAT is 19%, we pay 17.5%, some go as high as 25%, eg Denmark, Brazil, Norway. Interestingly, Saudi Arabia pay only 5%, and a maximum 20% income

Health Insurance is cheaper here, as it is payed by NI contribution, which could be considered a tax, many other countries require private health care.

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree
 

crikey

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miszt said:
Most EU countries having a starting take of between 15-20%, unlike us who have a starting tax of 0% (income under ~£4500, not sure the exact figure).

The world Average equivilant VAT is 19%, we pay 17.5%, some go as high as 25%, eg Denmark, Brazil, Norway. Interestingly, Saudi Arabia pay only 5%, and a maximum 20% income

Health Insurance is cheaper here, as it is payed by NI contribution, which could be considered a tax, many other countries require private health care.

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree
Most EU countries? You said the world first time around?! VAT is only one part of tax.

I think you're confusing the EU/Western developed countries with the whole world. The United Kingdom is not one of the lowest tax countries in the world. In fact even in the EU the newly joined Central European countries all have lower tax than us.
 

crikey

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JPsychodelicacy said:
You can get around that to a degree by being less dependant on foreign business (a tactic that worked for France for a while). Also remember that globalization as a process is something that is heavily dependant on the US economy, which while not in decline to an obvious degree, is sustaining itself by loaning dollar bonds to China and Japan. If the Chinese decide to pull the plug at any point, for any reason, the US economy will be FUBARed, along with sizeable chunks of the global economy.

Mark my words, if something isn't done this *will* happen, and even if something is done, it's likely to happen anyway due to the current momentum. A $236bn surplus converted to a $415bn deficit over 4 years - purely to finance largesse to existing billionaires and corporate welfare - is a pretty sickening freefall.

J.
You can't get around it by being less dependant on foreign business - thats the whole point of globalisation. Hows has it worked for France - over 10% unemployment for ages now, their economy is in terrible state.

How can China 'pull the plug'? WEhat does that even mean?> Chinas economy is dependant on the US economy - who do you think is buying all the cheap crap that China produces.

Your grasp of economics seems to be pretty shaky mate.
 

trancetheory

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You said the world first time around?!
The developing world is the worst for taxation, espcially in the dicatorship states, where tax isnt even registered, but (claimed to be) just taken.

Yes I did say the world, but I was giving examples that I thought where apropriate.

Austria (21%-50%, 20% vat)
Estonia (24%, 18%vat)
Latvia (25%, 18% vat)
Slovakia (19%, 19%vat)
South Africa (18%-40%, 14%vat)


....These are all taxations that occour on all wages, regardless of if you are on a megre wage or not, so if you only earn £3000, you still get taxed at that rate.

there are of course some nations that are less taxed than us...

New Zealand
0-39% 12.5%vat
 

trancetheory

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How can China 'pull the plug'? WEhat does that even mean?> Chinas economy is dependant on the US economy - who do you think is buying all the cheap crap that China produces.

Your grasp of economics seems to be pretty shaky mate.
Disagree with that, the US economy is dependant on the 'cheap crap' that other countries make. If it couldnt buy the goods so cheap, it couldnt make the profit it does selling it off.

Same applies to food produce, America put HUGE taxes on prepeared goods imported from developing countries (eg Brazil), this forces the developing countries to sell raw produce at a fraction of the price, because no-one will buy there prepeared produce with all the tax, and this allows american companies to then prepeare the goods and sell it at a HUGE profit, with very little tax.
 

crikey

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miszt said:
Disagree with that, the US economy is dependant on the 'cheap crap' that other countries make. If it couldnt buy the goods so cheap, it couldnt make the profit it does selling it off.

Same applies to food produce, America put HUGE taxes on prepeared goods imported from developing countries (eg Brazil), this forces the developing countries to sell raw produce at a fraction of the price, because no-one will buy there prepeared produce with all the tax, and this allows american companies to then prepeare the goods and sell it at a HUGE profit, with very little tax.
You disagree with that?!? Tell me then, how would the Chinese economy survive without the US market to sell its goods to? The world economy is INTERDEPENDANT - its called GLOBALISATION.

What on earth is the point of your second paragraph? Are you saying this is another example of the precarious position of the US economy? That it's unfair??
 

crikey

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There is no such thing as left and right anymore. The politics of globalisation has rendered national governments impotent in the face of the transnational corporation which has the ability to hold them to ransom. The welfare state is dying out across Europe, Keynesianism is dead, socialism is very dead.

And anyway, socialist movements can only come from a sense of solidarity - a very unfashionable word now that we live in a society at once individualised and multi cultural. Muslims couldn't give a fuck about the working class, unless they're muslim working classes, geddit?
 

JPsychodelicacy

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crikey said:
Your grasp of economics seems to be pretty shaky mate.
OK, well maybe it is - I do suck with money.

However Paul Krugman is pretty well-respected in economic circles (aside from those with certain vested interests), and he finds the whole China/US situation very uncomfortable: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/072205O.shtml

Incidentally, i've had a look at your posting history, and bar a couple of posts, jus tabout everything you've written here has been really argumentative and on occasion downright rude. Do you have some anger issues? Us hippies can balance your chakras if you like...

J.
 

crikey

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JPsychodelicacy said:
OK, well maybe it is - I do suck with money.

However Paul Krugman is pretty well-respected in economic circles (aside from those with certain vested interests), and he finds the whole China/US situation very uncomfortable: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/072205O.shtml

Incidentally, i've had a look at your posting history, and bar a couple of posts, jus tabout everything you've written here has been really argumentative and on occasion downright rude. Do you have some anger issues? Us hippies can balance your chakras if you like...

J.
Er...right on dude.
 
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