Artists using the same samples/patches in multiple tunes...

ichabod

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Is this an attempt to give an album continuity etc. or just lazy? Just noticed this listening to some Genetic Spin stuff - they seem to use this nice low-fi percussion sample in almost every tune!

What do you do when you find a perfect sample for a tune you are writing but you've already used it in another tune?
 

Fromem_Ory

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i've recently been thinking about where to draw the line between using the same sample in multiple tunes because its one of your trademark sounds, and just overusing it, like many of the alien project tracks. he uses the same samples in every track, which is just lazy and crap. but take rinkadink for example, he has his own trademark sounds, some little reverse whooshes, and i reckon it just gives the track that rinkadink effect. apart from that its not just recycled sounds, though he's not the best example.
to sum it up: if i use the same sample in multiple tunes, i do it just enough that it makes my mark on my music, and it will usually be a sample i made myself, so people hear it and know its a Fromem Ory track. using and abusing a sound over and over again is not such a great idea, and that goes for synth presets as well.
the worst part for me is making new drumkits in battery every time i make a new tune, but i think thats important...
 

evilwill

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eskimo uses pretty much the same snare in every tune which i reckon is fairly unecessary. some consistancy is a good though, i like the fact i can listen to a new tune by an artist and recognise that its by them, even if it sounds unlike anything they've done before in many ways...
 

fuzzikitten

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I think a lot of this has to do with what portions of a track an artist enjoys being creative with.

For me there are certain aspects of a track that I find less enjoyable than others. EQing my rimshot verses writing melodic themes/progressions/etc. I find myself reusing rimshots, whereas I never reuse melodies.

Maybe it's something the artist just doesn't enjoy being creative (and thus original) with?
 

Speakafreaka

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Shakta does/did this loads. Too much in fact. Sometimes, It was difficult to figure out if it was a remix or a new tune. When you are taking big lead and FX sounds in one piece of music, and then using them again with a bit of filtering and different delay and calling it a new piece of music - well it's just cynical in my eyes. It's a remix sure. But it isn't an all new and exclusive Shakta track.

Charasmatix on the other hand do it really well and very subtely. But then, charasmatix are bloody ace anyway.

I only have twoish kick drum sounds. I tailor them to each tune though. They always sound different in the end. Trying to come up with all new sounds for every single track can be a real creativity inhibitor.
 

onestone

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Interesting question, which I would like to answer with another question. What is the listener interested in? Is it the overalll tune or is it the samples in the tunes? If I were to equate samples to musical instruments, how the hell did Mozart and all the other great composers manage with just about 30 of them?
 

Speakafreaka

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That is a digital answer to an analog problem.

There are infinite shades of tonal variation in a classical (or indeed a synth for that matter) instrument. A sample is fixed forever. Lots of the 'great' composers are ones who figured out how to use instruments in a new way. Of course, Beethovne could create entire symphonies out of one motif, but he was a genius.

I think the listener is interested in the musical message of a piece. You have said what you meant once. To alter what you have said weakens the original argument.

Some composers succesfully reused motif's (like shostakovich for example), but you'd never have heard Beethoven using the motif from the th in enything else.
 

Speakafreaka

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Well say you sample a classical instrument and don't wish to modulate the sound. You wish to perform a bach cello suite on a sampled cello (for example). But you only have one set of samples. All with one speed of vibrato. All recorded in one hand position on the cello, all on the down bow. How do you change that? What about slurs, glissandi and phrasing?

Whilst theoretically possible to record every single nuance of an instrument it is practically impossible .

Besides which, if you record me a million times playing a Bach suite, you'd get a million different performances of it.

Even if you managed to programme a convincing performance out of a sampler, then changing it would require complete re recording if say, the tempo wasn't quite right, or the climax of a piece was a little overblown. Samplers are just not subtle enough to alter the actual performance of what goes into them, hence garbage in garbage out.
 

opia

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Speakafreaka said:
Well say you sample a classical instrument and don't wish to modulate the sound. You wish to perform a bach cello suite on a sampled cello (for example). But you only have one set of samples. All with one speed of vibrato. All recorded in one hand position on the cello, all on the down bow. How do you change that? What about slurs, glissandi and phrasing?

well surely the whole point of the sampler is that by adding modulation to filter, pitch, pan etc. you can make a sample sound more realistic?? keygroups, certain samples being played on certain velocities etc.

Whilst theoretically possible to record every single nuance of an instrument it is practically impossible .

but you can mimic them adequately enough... depending on what you're striving towards i guess


Even if you managed to programme a convincing performance out of a sampler, then changing it would require complete re recording if say, the tempo wasn't quite right, or the climax of a piece was a little overblown. Samplers are just not subtle enough to alter the actual performance of what goes into them, hence garbage in garbage out.

surely midi takes care of all that?
 

Speakafreaka

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opia said:
well surely the whole point of the sampler is that by adding modulation to filter, pitch, pan etc. you can make a sample sound more realistic?? keygroups, certain samples being played on certain velocities etc.

To a point lord copper, but it isn't a touch on the real thing. You can't undo vibrato that isn't there, and practically speaking isn't 'just'pitch modulation, it is tonal modulation as well. It is impossible to accurately map say glissing from regular playing into a harmonic (which is a really, really nice noise, without actually recording it.



but you can mimic them adequately enough... depending on what you're striving towards i guess

as you say it depends what you are satisfied with.


surely midi takes care of all that?

No not at all, mainly because of the first bit. You cannot fundamentely alter the nature of the recording after the event, no matter how good your midi progamming is.
 

opia

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No not at all, mainly because of the first bit. You cannot fundamentely alter the nature of the recording after the event, no matter how good your midi progamming is.

yeah but supposing you're mimicking the sound if an instrument in the ways i said, then you can alter those things at any point.. surely..
anyway, you're right of course it's very difficult to recreate that sound within a sampler but there are so many different factors to consider. i actually think the multisampled piano i play through reason sounds nicer than my piano downstairs :Smile3:
 

opia

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Colin OOOD said:
I don't think that's a practical example, Speaka. If I wanted an original cello performance of a Bach piece I'd find a bloody cellist. It's a bit like saying "you can't win F1 on a bicycle"... of course you can't. You want to win F1, get yourself an F1 car.

Horses for courses.

plus wendy carlos did it way better with a moog...
 

Speakafreaka

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yeah but supposing you're mimicking the sound if an instrument in the ways i said, then you can alter those things at any point.. surely..

No, I disagree. I reckon it's impossible to recreate a performance in midi, but hey! Wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed all the time, and I'd love to hear you prove me wrong!

i actually think the multisampled piano i play through reason sounds nicer than my piano downstairs

yeah absolutely!!!

That's what is so good about sampler driven music like hip hop. It sounds nothing like the actual instrument but it does sound good!

I don't think that's a practical example, Speaka. If I wanted an original cello performance of a Bach piece I'd find a bloody cellist. It's a bit like saying "you can't win F1 on a bicycle"... of course you can't. You want to win F1, get yourself an F1 car.

that's exactly the point I've been trying to make in my own muddleheaded way! @)
 

seuss

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as a violinist i think it would be nigh-on impossible to recreate that instrument's sound via midi -

- if only because midi couldn't send enough signals. you need to think about:

- bow position, speed, pressure, angle of attack, rosin level and lateral force
- finger position, pressure, angle, movement, width and delicacy
- hand position, shoulder position etc.

all of which influence the sound of the instrument, and most of which change every instant.
 

ichabod

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A violin or cello is still just a mechanical device . The playing of one could still be described completely in terms of a relitively small number of parameters - you wouldn't be able to re-create the sound using samples however much you modified them... but if someone could design an extremely high detail physical model of the instrument then fed the control parameters into it you should end up with an indistinguishable re-rendering of the music. I think a physical model this acurate is beyond current design skills/processing power... plus... its a bit pointless.

Anyway, this is kind of off topic...
 
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back to topic for a sec...i think KoxBox / Saiko Pod use many of the same sounds and samples: whole synth lines and riffs, whole basslines and drumloops, many of the same dialogue bits and stabs...but tats what makes it Koxbox...its almost as if all thses motifs are reoccuring actors in a TV show or something...btw anyone know anyting about a new KoxBox cd?
 
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