first trance track in 2 years! input needed...

soliptic

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need some advice on this one guys...

after 2 years away I've finally made another trance tune.

its not completely finished yet, but I did consider it "all-but finished", just wanted to do a few more fx and 'mastering'.

however i did a quick mixdown and took it round to a friends and they only started liking it after about 6:30!

personally i dont really like it until about 4:00, then i love the bit from there to 6:30, and then from 6:30 to end i like too.

so basically my question for you guys is,

should i completely rework the first four minutes so that they sound more like the last two minutes.

of course any comments anybody has on any other aspect of the track are very welcome too!

here's the link:

intervention (draft @ 112kbps)
 
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:ph34r: steve please please know that i am the most RIDICULOUSLY fussy anal fusspot when it comes to trance, and that after 6:30 is astonishingly good!!!!!!!! x x x x x
 

soliptic

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canyouhearthegoblins said:
:ph34r: steve please please know that i am the most RIDICULOUSLY fussy anal fusspot when it comes to trance,
that's why your opinion is so helpful!

and you're fully right anyway, that bit is definitely 1000 times better than 0-4min.
 

absorbentgnome

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Caaaaardiff, but.
Yeah I think it's good, it's got some lovely attention to detail. Maybe it needs a really acidic synth in it towards the end? Not sure, that's just my personal taste. What plugins are you using for the synths?
 

soliptic

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The obviously-synthy-melody-synths are just your usual suspects really - a vstation, a z3ta, a couple of synth ones. The mass of crunchy squelchy bass noises are various odds and sods, mostly just fragments of sample repeatedly processed & resampled.
 

psyfi

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I think what going on here is that the first half of the tune is like a standard/expected dance track. Kind of like someone saying yadda yadda yadda here is you dance music we will just let this bit play out until we get to the parts I enjoyed writing. No offence meant it's very good and some off the sounds and work in the first section are excellent but the stuff I enjoyed in the first part were played out much better in the later parts. You could look at it as the last half of the track exceeds the first part to much and of course rather than bring down the second half you would want to up the first.

You could try using the last half of the tune as the beginning and see what new end grows from it. I think this would be easier and more productive then trying to create something new and have it meet up with what you have in place already.
 

OPTOBOT

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the start of the tune ins't really up to rest of it.

also the first break is wicked!! very cool ethnic feel! but then the momemtem biult up is lost on on the trance bit.

i reckon you should use the big break as the starting of another tune cos the other bits don't seem to fit it so well.

Also be carefall of over using the siney-melody (eskimo style) cos its one way of making a tune sound very cheesy.

But seriously that break is fat! hair on the back of my neck fat! but afterwards it losses its feeling

just my two cents!

Pete
 

OPTOBOT

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p.s the mix is very muddy fuddy in the mid range

quoted from some mixing help from mr colin oood and it helped the tune loads

"Also, in general, there is a certain amount of low-frequency 'clutter' that would benefit the clarity of the track a lot if it was removed on a sound-by-sound basis with a high-pass EQ on each sound: sweep the EQ up from 20Hz until you hear the sound change, then back it off a bit. For best results I'd recommend the Waves REQ2 (mono or stereo as appropriate) set to a high-pass filter, Q=1."
 

soliptic

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psyfi said:
I think what going on here is that the first half of the tune is like a standard/expected dance track. Kind of like someone saying yadda yadda yadda here is you dance music we will just let this bit play out until we get to the parts I enjoyed writing. No offence meant it's very good and some off the sounds and work in the first section are excellent but the stuff I enjoyed in the first part were played out much better in the later parts. You could look at it as the last half of the track exceeds the first part to much and of course rather than bring down the second half you would want to up the first.
EXACTAMUNDO!

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Cheers for the comments so far everyone.

I don't think major rewriting is really an option (I'm very nearly out of patience with this one), like taking one section and going off to build something all-new. But I am considering a nice bit of copy/paste action from the last bit to the first bit, to make the first half, well, better.
 

Faction

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Everything in the first half seems kind of 'on the beat'; I can imagine it being hard work to dance to, as there are few syncopations in the major rhythms and melodies to carry one from one phrase to the next. The second half is great, reminiscent of mid-90s Eat Static (to me)... however the mix needs a fair bit of attention too; the bass is indistinct and the kick is lacking in punch, and it sounds like you're trying to fit too much 'in the box' in the low-range particularly.
 

soliptic

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Wow, interesting to see the comments people have on this one!

Not sure how the first section is 'on the beat' and the second isnt, since basically everything that's happening in the former is also happening in the latter (with the exception of something that's running constant 16ths, and thus both on and off the beat, anyway).

But I do weirdly know what you mean. It's just not very groovy.

Bit concerned that two of you have said the mix needs work, esp with the bass end. It sounds fine on my monitors -- not completely finished and homebrew-mastered, sure, but nowhere near "needs a fair bit of attention" -- and it also sounded fine on georgie's stereo - played in the midst of an all-evening trancefest it didn't seem to stand out to me except being slightly quieter.

Again, I know where you're coming from, cos I have stuffed a lot of stuff down there, but at the same time I've been pretty paranoid about clutter as I've gone along, and ruthlessly filtered/eq'd stuff as needed :/

Oh well.... tbh my new feeling on this track is that being something of a comeback effort, it was never going to be that great, so I might as well just leave it like this and crack onto a new one.
 

psyfi

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Let us know who the new stuff goes mate.

Was your frame of mind when making this track "This is a come back track"?

If so that could be why you felt you struggled with it. Trying to write something with a pre judged idea of what it's for rather than just for the act or writing it is the kind of thing that trips me up. I'm not one for trying to make the sounds I hear in my head but just let what happens happen. Then again other people are more suited to that way of working.
 

soliptic

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psyfi said:
Let us know who the new stuff goes mate.

Was your frame of mind when making this track "This is a come back track"?
nah, not really, it was just a case of "oh i went to a psy party for the first time in donkeys years and it was rather fun, so lets make a trance tune again"

If so that could be why you felt you struggled with it.
well, i think its probably just that i'm out of practice making trance -- hell, i havent even really listened to any for the same period.
 

Gibbonflux

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I quite liked it, but agree with the comments about it getting better towards the end. Perhaps the 1st section could be a lot shorter, the breakdown come in a lot earlier and the stuff towards the end elabourated upon.

Apart from that, I think the main problem with it is that the kick doesn't have any thump and the bass lacks definition. I think fixing those two elements would go a long way towards making the track sound more exciting
 

ichabod

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I really love the track! The first break is indeed fat - keep that in whatever you do!

I agree, the first half does sseem to be in quite a different style to the second.. its a bit old school sounding (layers of synths flying everywhere). After 6:30 it is a lot more minimal and groovy. Some of it could be due to the lack of the mid-range synths in the second half allowing the bass a bit more space to breath and so making the bass groove a bit easier to pick up on. A bit more low cut on the synths might sort things out. Also the lack of groovyness in the first half could be just down to the main synth riff being fairly straight sounding. In fact, I reckon pretty much the whole problem is linked to the synth riff in the first half! I do like the riff but just don't reckon it fits the style of the latter part of the tune.
 

soliptic

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ichabod said:
I really love the track! The first break is indeed fat - keep that in whatever you do!

I agree, the first half does sseem to be in quite a different style to the second.. its a bit old school sounding (layers of synths flying everywhere). After 6:30 it is a lot more minimal and groovy. Some of it could be due to the lack of the mid-range synths in the second half allowing the bass a bit more space to breath and so making the bass groove a bit easier to pick up on. A bit more low cut on the synths might sort things out. Also the lack of groovyness in the first half could be just down to the main synth riff being fairly straight sounding. In fact, I reckon pretty much the whole problem is linked to the synth riff in the first half! I do like the riff but just don't reckon it fits the style of the latter part of the tune.
i think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head (assuming you mean the synth riff i think you mean)...

the one i mean, and i think you mean, is the one i mentioned above on the 16ths. its got a lot of "depth" to its timbre, which i think clutters up the bass stuff.

it's something i did seriously consider during the making, (whether or not it cluttered to much) but eventually decided it was ok... a wrong decision perhaps! i didnt want to low cut (more than i already did!) it because the low end of the sound is really nice... but tbh the low end of that sound doesnt really come thru in the mix against the bass synths anyway, so i might as well get rid of it!

being solid 16th it is also straight and decreases the sense of syncopation from the other noises.

now the only problem is if i can bring myself to spend another weekend on it instead of starting something new and exciting...
 

psyfi

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psyfi said:
Let us know who the new stuff goes mate.

Was your frame of mind when making this track "This is a come back track"?

soliptic said:
nah, not really, it was just a case of "oh i went to a psy party for the first time in donkeys years and it was rather fun, so lets make a trance tune again"
psyfi said:
If so that could be why you felt you struggled with it."?


soliptic said:
well, i think its probably just that i'm out of practice making trance -- hell, i havent even really listened to any for the same period.
Well in that case we'll be hearing some great trance stuff from you as soon as you have gotten your hand back in. From the sounds of what we have already heard it should be some great stuff.
 

Speakafreaka

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soliptic said:
hell, i havent even really listened to any for the same period.
It is very possible to suffer fropm fluoro burnout :iyes:

I'm suffering from trance apathy meself at the mo, but strangely now I no longer listen to trance anymore, my trance output has increased massively (nearly two tunes in a month which for me is ***woosh*** ). I'm just so utterly pissed off with lots of the music I hear coming out at the mo. I just don't enjoy it. I'm not saying it was 'better in the old days' or any of that rubbish, just at the moment the majority of stuff doesn't float my boat - there is amazing groovy music out there, yes but I can't be arsed to sort through the dross anymore.

You know what I'm really enjoying listening to at the moment? Bach on Radio 3. At least it engages my brain.


ANYHOW!

I'm DLing the track now, on dial up (which explains the long rambling rant), and when I've had a listen I'll give an opinion. If it is anything like your old stuff I'll bet it is cool.
 

Speakafreaka

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***much later***

In terms of ideas, it holds together fantastically until 2.26, and then it really needs to change. Great sample loads of weird wobbling - yes, all of this is nice, then after that it isn't bad, just short on ideas up until the breakdown. Breakdown is good with the oldskool cosmosis style kicks and slides. Always loved that style. It could come in a bit more *kapow* if you now what I mean. Yes after 6.30 is good, but surely this closely related to the bit up until 2.26.

Overall - yes nice, I like it. Great mood and vibe.

The sound isn't bad per se in my opinion. I think maybe MP3 is distorting the kick drum and the bass is a bit lost in the first section.

I think the thing with the sound is that although it is very polished and competent (I've never managed to get the Goa sound down pat - it is bloody tricky) it is a bit old skool. If old skool is what you want then great, and yes I love old skool, but why not use newer style kicks and basses, retaining the goa vibe (a journey I'm trying to go on myself)

I love your ideas man. Really trippy, atmospheric and otherwordly if you know what I mean - so much better then the random zero subtelty rubbish that the 'scene' is infected with. I'd rather listen to your stuff then the last psy CD I purchased that is for goddam sure. Good job
 

soliptic

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As for the old school debate

Basically it's not something I can really control, it just comes out like that, cos that's all I know.

My influences, trance-wise, are 95% Cosmosis, Green Nuns and Hallucinogen, and 5% everything else. I'm fairly familiar with Logic Bomb circa 2001 but wizzy noise (or whatever) in 2005... havent a clue what that sounds like.

Tbh I try and use modern kicks and basses but with old school melodies anyway... so if the kicks and basses dont come out modern... this is obviously because I dont have a clue what I'm doing when it comes to modern trance!
 
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