Guardian:"Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year

JPsychodelicacy Nov 24, 2004

  1. JPsychodelicacy

    JPsychodelicacy Studio Elf

    Threads:
    49
    Messages:
    9,075
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London SE19
    I'm quite a mild-mannered guy, but sometimes I read things that make me want to spit blood.

    This is one of those articles:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html

    (emphasis mine)

    and just for further emphasis:

    I mean what kind of twisted, f**ked-up world are we living in here? Stuff your nebulous 'threats of terror', this was not just a fellow human being but a 13-year old child.

    'Defense' Force my arse - this is state-sanctioned racist murder.

    J.

    [Edited to add : I know that at least half of the Israelis don't condone these actions and I'd be the last to condemn a whole people for the actions of a single sick f**ker - I just needed to vent, because actions like these just go a million miles beyond the f***ing pale in my view.]
     
  2. albs

    albs Junior Members

    Threads:
    5
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chiltern hillbilly country
    The Israeli army officer in this incident should be charged for murder within an international jury court or international war crimes court, like Milosevic, because the victim will not get fair justice within Israel IMO.
     
  3. monster

    monster one step beyond

    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    no matter where you go, there you are
    The reality of war crimes is, unfortunatly, that they are only enforced when the agenda of the most powerful state envolved is being searved.Bush and Blair would be handcuffed and in orange overalls if there where any justice. The child murdered had been dehumanised in the mind of the soldier. His actions where aborant but a symptom of a pervers culture of hate that both Palastinian and Israili perpetuate. The situation in the region is a horrific stain on our collective unconsious. As a parent my heart goes out to the family.
     
  4. albs

    albs Junior Members

    Threads:
    5
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chiltern hillbilly country
    Well basically that is one of the main problems of the whole world. Accountability or lack of it. When people can get away with taking other peoples lives and not be put on trial, whether they are a soldier killing a civilian or a leader taking his country to war, then most of the public loses faith in both law and order and democracy. This actually fuels fundamentalism in my opinion because the public see that there are laws for some and not for others.

    So if the Israeli officer gets away with this murder then the chances are very high that he will have created a grieving family member of hers who will attempt to obtain retribution themselves because of the biased Israeli law. Thus Israel fuels it's own nemesis.

    Similarly, the fundamentalists/terrorists/freedom fighters want retribution for the 1000s of Iraqi civilians killed by the US and UK in their attempt to bring 'so called democracy to Iraq'. As long as the UK and US kill Iraqi civilians they will be creating more insurgents/freedom fighters.

    To put it in perspective, if a country invaded the UK and members of my family were killed indiscriminately then I would seek retribution for that. If I didn't have any confidence in the effectivness of international justice or in the justice of the country invading to arrest and prosecute those that murdered my family members then I would want to make retribution personally.
    I am not religious but I do believe that none should be able to take anothers life without being answerable for it.

    There can be no excuse for murder where ever it is perpetrated.

    Likewise an angry mob in Mexico should not have killed those policemen. The mob have regressed from being civilised humans to animals. There is no excuse for those deaths.

    I think the only way to stop the cycle of killing is to prosecute the perpetrators and for all to see that they are being called into account. If Irael does not put this officer on trial then an international court should. If Israel doesn't hand him over then full sanctions should be imposed. (Basically thats what happened to Libya over the nightclub bombings in Germany).

    But there does appear to be a problem. It seems that some countries will support Israel even when it flagrantly defies international law and UN resolutions. These countries also appear to be ignoring the purpose of the UN and making war themselves without the agreement of the international community. They create a fine example for democracy and abiding by the values that they ask other countries to follow.

    Rant over :mad:
     
  5. JPsychodelicacy

    JPsychodelicacy Studio Elf

    Threads:
    49
    Messages:
    9,075
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London SE19
    Read : The USA.

    Of course, the fact that the second-largest customer of the US arms manufacturers (of which US government officials like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz sit on the boards) outside of the US military itself is, survey says....

    Israel

    ...is purely coincidental.

    (The same scumbags are whipping up frankly dangerous religious undertones to this crisis as well, but that's a story for another time)

    I just find it so sad that a country that was founded in order to prevent persecution of a people is now flagrantly doing a lot of persecuting itself.

    J.
     
  6. monster

    monster one step beyond

    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    no matter where you go, there you are
    The U.N is just another face of the vast american empire. The world bank and the I.M.F are part of the U.N and you can get more neo-liberal that that.Thats why the U.N doesn't do anything its run by the motherfuckers in the white house. :mad:
     
  7. JPsychodelicacy

    JPsychodelicacy Studio Elf

    Threads:
    49
    Messages:
    9,075
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London SE19
    Nope, it's been standing up to the White House recently, and the White House has marginalised it as a result.

    See also: 'Old' Europe, 'Pooty-poot'
    Older references : Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein

    Note that the 'Religious Right' believes the EU to be the seat of the Antichrist, and the UN to be his enablers... yeesh!

    J.
     
  8. albs

    albs Junior Members

    Threads:
    5
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chiltern hillbilly country
    Kofi Anan the antichrist , ha well that figures if the US religious right are also members of the Klu Klux Klan :o

    Could be Chirac....

    Wonder who gets the antichrist label.... we've already got the axis of evil..
     
  9. LozGee

    LozGee Guest

    Quote:

    "Likewise an angry mob in Mexico should not have killed those policemen. The mob have regressed from being civilised humans to animals. There is no excuse for those deaths. "

    And there lies the key - civilised. Remove civil rights, and we become less civilised, more horrendous retribution follows. Some wounds take longer to heal, while some states actively remind their peoples of the wounds in order to galvanise nationalist opinions, so further inhumane acts are accepted by those peoples.

    The only way out is to have accountability for every single death, be it in war or a hospital. The latter abounds, serving as a neat diversion from the former.

    Sadly, we are now reaching a point where wholesale acts of this nature are effectively rubber stamped by the powerful perpetrators. The rot has begun and technology and media control will perpetrate that.

    The conclusion will come when one so wronged seeks retribution without limit. That will end the human race. The upside is that to accomplish such an unthinkable goal will require fast action, so hopefully, when we do finally go, it ain't gonna hurt too much. It will happen.

    :wizard1:
     
  10. acidicjenny

    acidicjenny Junior Members

    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Cardiff
    There will be no peace in the middle-east whilst the religious right in america hols strong. And the zionists are so powerful as to make an independent palistinean state a dream. It makes me so angry that everyone involved can't be more open-minded and fair and see the bigger picture rather than the (unfortunate) current reality. The U.S has the ability to make the world a better place and yet it refuses. Why? I find this whole subject so depressing and yet it is impossible to avoid. I am a pragmatist and realise that there is no easy solution. As much as I want to hope I almost cannot bear to. I feel as though if we all believed in the need to treat every situation we encountered in a peaceful, loving and empathic way then we would create a much better world. Does anyone agree??
     
  11. dave arc-i

    dave arc-i Guest

    Did anyone see 'Who put the fun in fundementalism' on C4 a few nights ago?
    If they are to be believed George Bush believes in 'The Rapture' (The day the almighty raises all the good people to heaven) and this is the man with the final say so on the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world. Right wing or righteous?

    Back to the topic in a general sort of way.......
    The wall that Israel is currently building 'to protect itself' from the Palestinians has (to my thinking) disturbing similarities to the way the Warsaw Ghetto was isolated in the 1940's. I hate to draw such similarities but I find it reprehensible that a nation that should have suffered such abuse's in the past seems to want to repeat that particular piece of history as a lesson to another people.

    Another interesting but often overlooked aspect of this conflict is that in 1948 it was the Israeli's that we percieved as the terrorists.
    I wonder how that would be dealt with in the context of todays world and so called Islamic terrorism. Would Menachim Begin have been hunted here there and everywhere in the way Osama Bin Laden has by the US?
     
  12. albs

    albs Junior Members

    Threads:
    5
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chiltern hillbilly country
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1929_36.stm

    The Zionist project of the 1920s and 1930s saw hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrating to British Mandate Palestine, provoking unrest in the Arab community.

    In 1922, a British census showed the Jewish population had risen to about 11% of Palestine's 750,000 inhabitants. More than 300,000 immigrants arrived in the next 15 years.

    Zionist-Arab antagonism boiled over into violent clashes in August 1929 when 133 Jews were killed by Palestinians and 110 Palestinians died at the hands of the British police.

    Arab discontent again exploded into widespread civil disobedience during a general strike in 1936. By this time, the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi was orchestrating attacks on Palestinian and British targets with the aim of "liberating" Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan) by force.

    In July 1937, Britain, in a Royal Commission headed by former Secretary of State for India, Lord Peel, recommended partitioning the land into a Jewish state (about a third of British Mandate Palestine, including Galilee and the coastal plain) and an Arab one.

    Palestinian and Arab representatives rejected this and demanded an end to immigration and the safeguarding of a single unified state with protection of minority rights. Violent opposition continued until 1938 when it was crushed with reinforcements from the UK. [ends BBC article]

    The Jews in Palestine set up the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi to bring about the aim of liberating Palestine. This terror/liberation group preceded the Arab 'terror/liberation groups by decades. Probably even gave them the idea how to carry it out. But I bet they didn't feel the need to commit suicide to gain their homeland. Thats how helpless Palestinians feel when they think that a suicide attack may make a difference.

    We in the west are given such a westernised feel to the whole situation which is inevitably caused by Americas support for Israel and the embarassment of the British government for leaving the whole situation in such a mess.

    Would be great if the UK could help the move towards peace in Israel though since the Palestinians don't trust the US for being such friends to the Israelis.
     
  13. JPsychodelicacy

    JPsychodelicacy Studio Elf

    Threads:
    49
    Messages:
    9,075
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London SE19
    It's not dissimilar to people who were abused as children going on to abuse children themselves. :no:

    They've got long memories, and as a result don't much like us either... and to be honest I don't blame them!

    As an aside, remember that it was Winston Churchill in the '30s who originally advocated the use of poison gas on Kurdish tribes in Mesopotamia (now Iraq), saying they were 'uncivilised', which has a nasty ring of 'untermensch' about it to my ears.

    The problem was that the Second World War left us virtually bankrupt, and left us with crippling debts to the United States which were called in immediately hostilities were ceased - effectively neutering the UK on the world stage. The USSR was busy hastily re-arranging Eastern Europe into a set of client states to provide a buffer between Russia itself and the West, so we had no choice but to accept the US-sponsored UN creation of the Israeli state. Of course, the wealthiest of the Zionist extremists fled to the US well before the outbreak of WWII and set the stage for this to happen. Though the Arab states didn't exactly help either, each planning to take a chunk out of the former Palestinian mandate themselves, rather than aid the Palestinian people.

    It really is a clusterf**k.

    J.
     
  14. JohnM

    JohnM blah blah blah

    Threads:
    276
    Messages:
    5,761
    Likes Received:
    231
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Sunny Sheffield
    But when have we ever lived in a world when that was not the case?

    I think somebody did some research that showed there have been 15 yrs or something in the last 2000 years when there hasnt been a *major* war going on...
     
  15. Meijin

    Meijin Member

    Threads:
    13
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Biodiverse City
    Apologies for interrupting this thread which I know nothing about really, but John M wrote:
    'I think somebody did some research that showed there have been 15 yrs or something in the last 2000 years when there hasnt been a *major* war going on...'

    I think that about 10/12 years ago there was lull (just after the 'fall' of the SU, the end of the cold war, and before the start of the New World Order stuff) when it was the first year in many years that there was no actual conflict BETWEEN states - by that I mean that all the conflict was 'internal', i.e., civil wars. I know it might seem pedantic to point this out but at the time it seemed like a small step - which is why Bush's election(s) have actually wrought so much more destruction than might have been (sorry for stating the obvious) in terms of the 'international community' - where 'anarchy' really does exist, that is, no overall government or ruler.
     
  16. JPsychodelicacy

    JPsychodelicacy Studio Elf

    Threads:
    49
    Messages:
    9,075
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London SE19
    The rule seems to be that people will be happy to support a complete bastard as leader in times of war, because by necessity the leader will have to authorise actions that no sane human being would want perpetrated (cf. Fallujah Offensive, Dresden Bombing etc.).

    What happened in Bush's case was that he promised to be a moderate, then started a nebulous war in order to retain power once his true hard-line agenda was revealed.

    What's going on in Israel is not a war as such - it's more a political impasse caused by the unravelling of the British Empire 60 years ago, and an impractical solution driven by the collective sense of guilt felt in the West following the discovery of the Final Solution. Of course, Sharon and the leaders of Hamas refer to it as a war because it shores up support in their people that they otherwise would not have.

    J.
     
  17. dave arc-i

    dave arc-i Guest

    Lets not forget that Kuwait was created as a result of broken promise's by the UK government (amongst others) after the end of WW1. How much trouble has that led too?
    Ooooops we did it again!

    The current ceasefire that exists bewtween India and Pakistan is a reminder that the UK's independence strategy for India was one of the cause's of partition and much resulting death and conflict that still hasn't been resolved.

    There seem to be a link appearing here.
     
  18. JPsychodelicacy

    JPsychodelicacy Studio Elf

    Threads:
    49
    Messages:
    9,075
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London SE19
    A lot of the Balkan troubles seem to stem from the fall of the Ottoman Empire, too (though they were held in check by Tito's version of Communism for a while)...

    Makes you wonder how much trouble the fall of the Roman Empire caused in its day that simply didn't get recorded. Either way, it seems that the message of history translates roughly to "Empire : don't do it".

    And what's Bush's administration setting up now, in all but name?

    *sigh*

    J.
     
  19. albs

    albs Junior Members

    Threads:
    5
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chiltern hillbilly country
    Well I think the fall of the Roman empire caused the Dark Ages. And We don't have many records for over 1000 years. In the UK the Doomsday book was one of the first written documents..

    Some would say that the US are empire building with their 'topple Regime in aid of democracy policy'. But it is a naive person who believes that the US stands to gain nothing from invading Iraq. Already the US commercial empire has moved into Iraq and are taking all the reconstruction and economic contracts. Another example of the leading country of the free world showing its fair trade policy :mad:
     
  20. Meijin

    Meijin Member

    Threads:
    13
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Biodiverse City
    Dave Arc1 wrote:
    'Lets not forget that Kuwait was created as a result of broken promise's by the UK government (amongst others) after the end of WW1. How much trouble has that led too?'

    Problem is when Iraq signed up to the UN in the late '50s/early '60s it agreed to the sovereignty of Kuwait (Kuwait already being a member), therefore, Iraq had accepted the sovereignty of Kuwait. So, when the invasion of '91 happened it was actually legitimate for the UN powers to get Iraq out of Kuwait - after all, that's partly what the UN exists for at present, so that states will accept each other's sovereignty as legitimate and thus validate their own sovereignty...from these small steps, that is acceptance of each other's sovereignty, at least some progress towards ending some forms of war might be taken. However, it must be said that pre-existing borders and notions of sovereignty means that it is exceedingly difficult for NEW states to be created. I think there have only been 4 or 5 in the last 30 years - say like Eritrea breaking from Ethiopia (becuase it's not quite the same when colonial states gained independence - like Tangyanika becoming Tanzania because the state changed hands according to the same territorial borders etc....)

    There is an expression 'empires incorporate, nations exclude' which of course puts the positive aspects of empire building in the sense that all those incorporated live under the same rule of law and national rivalries are subsumed under a sense of community that is something other than blood and soil nationalism - hence the communist 'ideal' in the SU and china, nationalism being seen as a damaging and mistaken solution to improving the lot of the population because it depends on some notion of ethnicity as a means to help a population - thus the point about 'nations' excluding others. Of course, according to communist ideology the REAL community is that of class, not ethnicity, and one's relation to others in one's class - such as being part of the proletariat. That's why, if you saw on the tv, during the cold war, the inside meeting rooms of many third world revolutionary/guerilla movements they would had pictures of Marx, Engels, Mao, Guevara and others on their walls - they felt an identity with the proletariat and oppressed OUTSIDE their state rather than with someone who merely shared their nationality - even if they were, as often, an indigenous fourth world, or 'tribal' person.
    Anyway, this approach on the left has usually been referred to as 'internationalism' or from a liberal perspective as 'cosmopolitanism' - that people have more in common with the rest of humanity than necessarily just with those they share a territory with....and is a serious moral position that many people can relate to....

    Of course, one of the many down sides to empires from a cultural or political power point of view is that the important evolutionary successes and achievements of a culture can be downplayed, denigrated, or negated when subsumed under an empire. Therefore, any atttempt at empire incorporation or building has got to be justified within the context of equality and progress (tall order I know, but look at Yugoslavia BEFORE the war - Meijin also having good friends there before the war) and NOT as an excuse for colonialism or neo-colonialism.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice