"'Huge risks' of Cameron strategy" & "UKIP seeks to target Tory voters"

JPsychodelicacy

Studio Elf

Monkey Do

#1 Internet Toughguy
Purusha said:
So has the backlash begun?

Well Robin Harris seems to think it's time it did at least. He was on the radio this morning moaning about Cameron, Mr Harris apparently feels that the tory party is about to take the left hand fork down red street and he thinks that their strategy should be to actually have not changed a damn thing since the mid-80's.

Obviously he is an idiot with a hard on for Thatcher.
 

AcidTrash

Banned
Cameron has effectively created a vacuum on the right wing by chasing libdem votes and chasing the idea of blu-labour.

Political vacuums don't stay that way for long. The BNP and UKIP are now fighting for the same ground to fill the space opposing the social democratic consensus. Hence why the BNP are attempting to shed their ultra right wing image and UKIP is trying to put an end to its political schizophrenia.

For a long time UKIP has had an identity problem as to whether it is a single issue pressure group or a serious political party.

Because the EU is largely inactive at the moment in terms of the big stuff it isn't in the hearts and minds of the voters so if UKIP wants to stay in business and prove it isn't a spent force in politics it must present a full range of policies that look out from the eurosceptic bubble.

They are dithering at the moment and have been for a while which is why the BNP are mopping up UKIP activists. The BNP are the only other party who is seriously opposed to british membership of the EU.

Whoever wins this ground on the centre right will most likely reap the rewards when the social democratic consensus runs out of steam. Electoral turnout is proving that people are fed up with it and when things get so bad that they go out and vote it will be for the most anti establishment organisation on the ballot paper.

There are around 5 million disaffected tories who no longer have a spiritual home under cameron and are looking toward UKIP for leadership. This may well be a turning point for them.

Even BNP activists are telling me that the oldskool BNPers are leaving because the BNP has gone soft and that the influx of new members are all old thatcherite tories.

Where UKIP has made a major mistake is in its silence over the cartoon wars. The BNP was the only party standing up for what a vast proportion of the public actually think.

Very often people will compromise some of their core beleifs at the balolot box to get what they want and soon we might just have such an occaision. Not quite enough to form a government but enough to shake the establishment into some positive action to avoid obliteration.

This is why I occupy the centre right in the political spectrum. I think there needs to be a warning to the consensus politicians that they are out of touch with the people. The current policy of propping up the economy with the public sector is bankrupting us.
 

AcidTrash

Banned
JPsychodelicacy said:
Well, if nothing else it'll let us see just how many unreconstructed racists there are in the ranks of Tory party supporters.

Steve Bell's done a wonderful one on Cameron here :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,1705769,00.html

J.


That is a great cartoon. Just about sums it up.

The problem for the tories is that this is one tory you can trust to do what he says. Frightening!

BTW, There are many unreconstructed racists in every major party. Some of the most racist things I've ever heard have been from life long labour voters.
 

JPsychodelicacy

Studio Elf
AcidTrash said:
The BNP was the only party standing up for what a vast proportion of the public actually think.

Got any evidence to back up this assertion? Your racist Sun/Star/Mail/Express-reading mates despreately trying to keep Bradford white don't count.

You're an anachronism... one of a dying breed. An integrated, multicultural Europe, working with China and Russia united against US hegemony is going to be the wave of the future. Your kids and grandkids are going to be coffee-coloured and may even be Muslim, and the sooner you accept that then the happier we'll all be.

The United Kingdom is an awful country which should have the decency to be thoroughly ashamed of its past. As soon as we're more like Germany I'll be even happier.

J.
 

josh

marathon solo-sessionahoy
You're another anachronism Joe, a whimpy modern-day limp-wristed apologist.
 

Monkey Do

#1 Internet Toughguy
JPsychodelicacy said:
Got any evidence to back up this assertion? Your racist Sun/Star/Mail/Express-reading mates despreately trying to keep Bradford white don't count.

They read the Telegraph and Argus up there mate.
 

JPsychodelicacy

Studio Elf
I'm not an apologist for it - I refute totally everything we did.

I'm sure you're just trying to get my hackles up by using the word 'glorious' to describe the period in which our forefathers subjugated and murdered people in far-off lands for the crime of being born with darker skin somewhere other than our sceptered isle, but I'm getting some at the moment, so it ain't going to happen. :P

J.
 

AcidTrash

Banned
JPsychodelicacy said:
Got any evidence to back up this assertion?
You can hardly deny it. Had I said the vast majority then I could handle your dispute of this claim.

JPsychodelicacy said:
Your racist Sun/Star/Mail/Express-reading mates despreately trying to keep Bradford white don't count.

This implies you know something about me. You don't.

JPsychodelicacy said:
You're an anachronism... one of a dying breed. An integrated, multicultural Europe, working with China and Russia united against US hegemony is going to be the wave of the future.

contradiction in terms.... you either integrate, or you maintain multiculturalism - spearate communities co-existing.

You think working with China and russia is better than "US hegemony". Human rights of no concern to you then.


JPsychodelicacy said:
Your kids and grandkids are going to be coffee-coloured and may even be Muslim, and the sooner you accept that then the happier we'll all be.


Don't car if they turn out purple or satanist so long as they can keep their religous practices in perspective and inside the context of the society they live in.

JPsychodelicacy said:
The United Kingdom is an awful country which should have the decency to be thoroughly ashamed of its past. As soon as we're more like Germany I'll be even happier.

We are like Germany. Rising unemployment, ever more paranoid police state, pensions crisis and completely afraid to stand up for ourselves.

Read up on British culture and modern democracy and you'll realise that we have as much to be proud of as ashamed. You should stop holding yourself accountable for the misdoings of the empire. If people take that attitude you risk giving the country away to people who enforce their religon through violence.

Spend a week in Saudi Arabia and then come tell me what an awful country this is.

Nice people huh?
 

Bacchanal

semilanceated
while I really don't want to get drawn into this...

in my understanding multiculturalism (a fairly non-specific term to my mind) does not necessarily entail seperate communities.
i.e. not isolated communities with different cultural systems

and as for human rights, I don't think that is necessarily something we can use to judge one side of that equation over the other
you're on just as dodgy ground with the us

and yes I do think us hegemony is a relevant issue in this political debate

and I refuse to elaborate further, because I'm lazy, and relatively in a hurry


EDIT: as joe has tidied up below, I was specifically meaning as comparison between the US and 'the evil in the east', not suggesting that human rights is not a relevant issue.
 

AcidTrash

Banned
Bacchanal said:
while I really don't want to get drawn into this...

in my understanding multiculturalism (a fairly non-specific term to my mind) does not necessarily entail seperate communities.
i.e. not isolated communities with different cultural systems

and as for human rights, I don't think that is necessarily something we can use to judge one side of that equation over the other
you're on just as dodgy ground with the us

and yes I do think us hegemony is a relevant issue in this political debate

and I refuse to elaborate further, because I'm lazy, and relatively in a hurry

Therein lies the problem. It is entirely a matter of which definition of multiculturalism you use. Many people mistake it for multi-ethnic society. Multi ethnic societies can and do work but in multicultural societies when one sector abides only by its own rules with no respect for those of the host nation it brings the whole thing crashing down.

I think human rights IS something we can use to judge other societies.

Take a look at the human rights record of any Islamic country where Sharia law prevails. I would sooner have the hypocrisy and corruption of the west than backward superstitions from the 7th century enforced by barbarians in the name of Allah.

How we treat each other is what defines us as a society. The oppression of religon is not permitted in this country and we should not allow any culture to live here that cannot accept this.
 

JPsychodelicacy

Studio Elf
AcidTrash said:
You can hardly deny it. Had I said the vast majority then I could handle your dispute of this claim.

Actually I can deny it quite easily. The "Send 'em back" brigade is inescapably dwindling.

This implies you know something about me. You don't.

I know your response to what you'd ask of Asian politicians in Bradford was "Where do you keep your detonators?". That told me pretty much all I need to know.

contradiction in terms.... you either integrate, or you maintain multiculturalism - spearate communities co-existing.

And intermingling - you forget that.

You think working with China and russia is better than "US hegemony". Human rights of no concern to you then.

Oh, because the human rights records of US-backed regimes and militia (Pinochet, Pol Pot, the Contras in El Salvador, Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Marcos and Suharto to name but a few) is so much better than that of Russia and China, yes?

We are like Germany. Rising unemployment, ever more paranoid police state, pensions crisis and completely afraid to stand up for ourselves.

They're doing pretty well for having absorbed a former Eastern Bloc country into their economy. You also forgot laid-back, tolerant, industrious and lacking in a binge culture.

Read up on British culture and modern democracy and you'll realise that we have as much to be proud of as ashamed.

Such as?

...you risk giving the country away to people who enforce their religon through violence.

Again, where do you get the idea that this is what Muslims have in mind? It's complete paranoid delusion!

Spend a week in Saudi Arabia and then come tell me what an awful country this is.

Last I checked, that regime was enthusiastically backed by the bastion of human rights that is the US too.

J.
 

AcidTrash

Banned
JPsychodelicacy said:
Actually I can deny it quite easily. The "Send 'em back" brigade is inescapably dwindling.

Then how come the BNP is experiencing a massive influx of new members and makes startling improvements at the ballot box each time?



JPsychodelicacy said:
I know your response to what you'd ask of Asian politicians in Bradford was "Where do you keep your detonators?". That told me pretty much all I need to know.

See stoning thread.

JPsychodelicacy said:
And intermingling - you forget that.

I do not forget that fact. You are making the incorrect assumption I am a white supremecist. If I get your point. If indeed you have one. Care to eleborate?

JPsychodelicacy said:
Oh, because the human rights records of US-backed regimes and militia (Pinochet, Pol Pot, the Contras in El Salvador, Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Marcos and Suharto to name but a few) is so much better than that of Russia and China, yes?

Later. Tea's ready. :Smile3:

JPsychodelicacy said:
They're doing pretty well for having absorbed a former Eastern Bloc country into their economy. You also forgot laid-back, tolerant, industrious and lacking in a binge culture.

Your knowledge of Germany and it's current economic problems could use some brushing up on. Also, the Germans are still having a hard time recovering from re-unification. They also have a serious demographic time bomb in terms of pensions and productivity. Britain is also Tolerant. This is half the problem. We are too tolerant.
Also Germany is seriously suffering from unified exhange rates and the Euro in general. You wanna talk about f*cked up countries mate I can point you in the right direction.

Binge culture is a symptom of a far more serious problem. If you would care to start a thread I will explore the issue with you.

JPsychodelicacy said:

Free healthcare, local democracy, welfare state, workers rights, animal welfare, public health, infrastrucure, engineering, innovation. For gods sake, wake up. Why do you think the UK is a first choice destination for immigrants????

JPsychodelicacy said:
Again, where do you get the idea that this is what Muslims have in mind? It's complete paranoid delusion!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/02/19/nsharia119big.jpg

Do some reasearch on Islamic states and Sharia law. If your moral compass is in any way functioning you will find their practices as abhorrant as any other decent human being.

JPsychodelicacy said:
Last I checked, that regime was enthusiastically backed by the bastion of human rights that is the US too.

Saudi is not backed, it is tolerated for financial and strategic reasons.
 

JPsychodelicacy

Studio Elf
AcidTrash said:
Then how come the BNP is experiencing a massive influx of new members and makes startling improvements at the ballot box each time?
Because the BNP and their ilk have worked out that you can fool some of the people all of the time. This is not a national phenomenon, the gains have been in specifically targeted areas, generally in deprived locations and low wage sink estates where education is poor and the temptation to blame the straw man of immigration is high.

See stoning thread.

I assume you're referring to the ICM poll conducted for the heavily conservative (and pro neo-conservative) magazine The Economist. You do know that it's possible to commission a poll to prove pretty much anything, right? It's all in how you ask the questions - that's how it was possible to get one polling organisation (sponsored by the Republican Party) predicting a Republican win in the 2004 US elections, and another (sponsored by the Democratic Party) predicting a win for John Kerry and the Democrats. Since the marketeers took polling over it has become a very inexact science.

I do not forget that fact. You are making the incorrect assumption I am a white supremecist. If I get your point. If indeed you have one. Care to eleborate?
No, I'm saying that your statements on immigration sound an awful lot like the straw man arguments used by white supremacists to garner power and support from those who can be persuaded that immigration is the root of their problems.

That's not the point I was making though - the point is that the 'great Muslim takeover' that you are trying to present as a fait accompli unless we withdraw from Europe and impose unnecessarily strict limits on immigration is a load of paranoid drivel dreamed up by those who would take advantage of the systemic educational problems among the working and lower middle classes to enact their racist and anti-democratic policies.


Your knowledge of Germany and it's current economic problems could use some brushing up on. Also, the Germans are still having a hard time recovering from re-unification.

The world is having a tough time readjusting to the collapse of the Soviet Union - hell, the current administration in the US can barely function without an enemy it can blame for the screw-ups it's making (note how pretty much every piece of draconian legislation currently being enacted are just regurgitated McCarthyite policies with 'Communist/ism' deleted and 'Terrorist/ism' inserted in its place).

They also have a serious demographic time bomb in terms of pensions and productivity.
As does pretty much every Western state right now - we're all too busy trying to stay above the poverty line and/or keep up with the Joneses to procreate at the level we were before our social safety nets were shredded by Thatcher/Kohl/Chirac/Reagan/Bush in the '80s and early '90s. This is a global issue, not restricted to this country.

In fact, pretty much the only countries where economy and birth rate are keeping pace with one another are China and India. One because birth rate is controlled by diktat fro mthe party in power, and the other because the executive boards of multinational US-based corporations funded a boom in the technological economy in order to generate cheap outsourced labour.

Britain is also Tolerant. This is half the problem. We are too tolerant.
Rubbish. There are other countries that have far more lenient immigration and welfare policies than we do.

Also Germany is seriously suffering from unified exhange rates and the Euro in general. You wanna talk about f*cked up countries mate I can point you in the right direction.
The most screwed-up country in the world by a country mile right now is the USA. The Euro would be booming right now if it weren't for the US threatening to bomb the everlasting shite out of any country that starts trading oil in Euros.

It was accepted at the time that there would be teething issues with a single European currency, but that the long-term value would outweigh it. The problem with 'Keep The Pound', as with all regressive policies is that it may allow for short-term gain, but over a longer period we *will* end up losing out.

Binge culture is a symptom of a far more serious problem. If you would care to start a thread I will explore the issue with you.
You start it, because I don't have a solid hypothesis for the causes, other than there being little better to do for those at a disadvantage in our current societal setup.

Free healthcare, local democracy, welfare state, workers rights, animal welfare, public health, infrastrucure, engineering, innovation. For gods sake, wake up. Why do you think the UK is a first choice destination for immigrants????
As I said above, we don't have anything that isn't available in many other European democracies - stop acting like we're an exception... we're not.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/02/19/nsharia119big.jpg

Do some reasearch on Islamic states and Sharia law. If your moral compass is in any way functioning you will find their practices as abhorrant as any other decent human being.
a) As if the Torygraph doesn't have an agenda.

b) I find the actions of some of our troops just as abhorrent, as well as the perversion of the US criminal justice system
Saudi is not backed, it is tolerated for financial and strategic reasons.
So why is Prince Bandar treated as an honorary member of the Bush clan?

Even so, treating a regime that has a terrible human rights record with kid gloves just because of what they can sell us pretty much negates any right to take the moral high ground, don't you think?

J.
 

AcidTrash

Banned
JPsychodelicacy said:
Because the BNP and their ilk have worked out that you can fool some of the people all of the time. This is not a national phenomenon, the gains have been in specifically targeted areas, generally in deprived locations and low wage sink estates where education is poor and the temptation to blame the straw man of immigration is high.


My sources tell me the BNP are receiving donations of over 100k a week at the moment. They're not targeting anyone. People are going to them. The main three paries stayed silent over this and did not say what most decent people were thinking. The BNP did.

It's taken until today for anyone in the government establishment to echo those same comments...

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-storypage.jsp?id=1124576

"And he suggested that any Muslims who want to live under a system of Shariah law should leave the country"

"But Sir Trevor - who has recently sparked controversy with his attacks on multi-culturalism and calls on ethnic minorities to integrate"
Sir Trevor Phillips - Commission for Racial Equality

Which is alll I have said. And yet you call me a racist.

Incidentally, if you do your homework on the BNP you will learn that their anger is direct at the government for following the flawed doctrine of multiculturalism.
Immigration is secondary.

JPsychodelicacy said:
I assume you're referring to the ICM poll conducted for the heavily conservative (and pro neo-conservative) magazine The Economist. You do know that it's possible to commission a poll to prove pretty much anything, right? It's all in how you ask the questions - that's how it was possible to get one polling organisation (sponsored by the Republican Party) predicting a Republican win in the 2004 US elections, and another (sponsored by the Democratic Party) predicting a win for John Kerry and the Democrats. Since the marketeers took polling over it has become a very inexact science.

Still a good indicator though and I have seen plenty examples of Islam in this country trying to assert its own doctrine over the law of the land.

JPsychodelicacy said:
No, I'm saying that your statements on immigration sound an awful lot like the straw man arguments used by white supremacists to garner power and support from those who can be persuaded that immigration is the root of their problems.

Has it occurred to you that people can come to similar conclusions without holding the same bias or prejudice?

JPsychodelicacy said:
That's not the point I was making though - the point is that the 'great Muslim takeover' that you are trying to present as a fait accompli unless we withdraw from Europe and impose unnecessarily strict limits on immigration is a load of paranoid drivel dreamed up by those who would take advantage of the systemic educational problems among the working and lower middle classes to enact their racist and anti-democratic policies.

With a massive pesions blackhole and an overburdened state and spiral number unemployed I think limiting immagration and pursuading our own back to work is vital. Leaving the EU has too many merits to go into here.

JPsychodelicacy said:
The world is having a tough time readjusting to the collapse of the Soviet Union - hell, the current administration in the US can barely function without an enemy it can blame for the screw-ups it's making (note how pretty much every piece of draconian legislation currently being enacted are just regurgitated McCarthyite policies with 'Communist/ism' deleted and 'Terrorist/ism' inserted in its place).
JPsychodelicacy said:
It's the same ideology. Islamofacism dogma sounds very much like left wing dogma. The feed off each other so why should the opposing aruments change?
It's a war of ideology.

JPsychodelicacy said:
As does pretty much every Western state right now - we're all too busy trying to stay above the poverty line and/or keep up with the Joneses to procreate at the level we were before our social safety nets were shredded by Thatcher/Kohl/Chirac/Reagan/Bush in the '80s and early '90s. This is a global issue, not restricted to this country.

I think you'll find the social safety nets of the last decade are far better than they ever have been. Some of which are monumentally detrimental to the economy.

JPsychodelicacy said:
In fact, pretty much the only countries where economy and birth rate are keeping pace with one another are China and India. One because birth rate is controlled by diktat fro mthe party in power, and the other because the executive boards of multinational US-based corporations funded a boom in the technological economy in order to generate cheap outsourced labour.

So you don't think social and employment legislation has made us uncompetetive and drives business out of the country?

JPsychodelicacy said:
Rubbish. There are other countries that have far more lenient immigration and welfare policies than we do.

Name one.

JPsychodelicacy said:
The most screwed-up country in the world by a country mile right now is the USA.

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/May2003/China

JPsychodelicacy said:
The Euro would be booming right now if it weren't for the US threatening to bomb the everlasting shite out of any country that starts trading oil in Euros.

Bollocks. The two are too intertwined. If one tanks, so does the other.

JPsychodelicacy said:
It was accepted at the time that there would be teething issues with a single European currency, but that the long-term value would outweigh it. The problem with 'Keep The Pound', as with all regressive policies is that it may allow for short-term gain, but over a longer period we *will* end up losing out.

Haven't time to answer that but I disagree.

JPsychodelicacy said:
As I said above, we don't have anything that isn't available in many other European democracies - stop acting like we're an exception... we're not.
[/QUOTE=J]

How do you mean?

JPsychodelicacy said:
Even so, treating a regime that has a terrible human rights record with kid gloves just because of what they can sell us pretty much negates any right to take the moral high ground, don't you think?
.

When one is as strategically important and financially influential as Saudi you have to pick your battles. We don't have a magic wand.
 
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