Purusha said:So has the backlash begun?
JPsychodelicacy said:Well, if nothing else it'll let us see just how many unreconstructed racists there are in the ranks of Tory party supporters.
Steve Bell's done a wonderful one on Cameron here :
AcidTrash said:The BNP was the only party standing up for what a vast proportion of the public actually think.
You can hardly deny it. Had I said the vast majority then I could handle your dispute of this claim.JPsychodelicacy said:Got any evidence to back up this assertion?
JPsychodelicacy said:Your racist Sun/Star/Mail/Express-reading mates despreately trying to keep Bradford white don't count.
JPsychodelicacy said:You're an anachronism... one of a dying breed. An integrated, multicultural Europe, working with China and Russia united against US hegemony is going to be the wave of the future.
JPsychodelicacy said:Your kids and grandkids are going to be coffee-coloured and may even be Muslim, and the sooner you accept that then the happier we'll all be.
JPsychodelicacy said:The United Kingdom is an awful country which should have the decency to be thoroughly ashamed of its past. As soon as we're more like Germany I'll be even happier.
Bacchanal said:while I really don't want to get drawn into this...
in my understanding multiculturalism (a fairly non-specific term to my mind) does not necessarily entail seperate communities.
i.e. not isolated communities with different cultural systems
and as for human rights, I don't think that is necessarily something we can use to judge one side of that equation over the other
you're on just as dodgy ground with the us
and yes I do think us hegemony is a relevant issue in this political debate
and I refuse to elaborate further, because I'm lazy, and relatively in a hurry
AcidTrash said:You can hardly deny it. Had I said the vast majority then I could handle your dispute of this claim.
This implies you know something about me. You don't.
contradiction in terms.... you either integrate, or you maintain multiculturalism - spearate communities co-existing.
You think working with China and russia is better than "US hegemony". Human rights of no concern to you then.
We are like Germany. Rising unemployment, ever more paranoid police state, pensions crisis and completely afraid to stand up for ourselves.
Read up on British culture and modern democracy and you'll realise that we have as much to be proud of as ashamed.
...you risk giving the country away to people who enforce their religon through violence.
Spend a week in Saudi Arabia and then come tell me what an awful country this is.
JPsychodelicacy said:Actually I can deny it quite easily. The "Send 'em back" brigade is inescapably dwindling.
JPsychodelicacy said:I know your response to what you'd ask of Asian politicians in Bradford was "Where do you keep your detonators?". That told me pretty much all I need to know.
JPsychodelicacy said:And intermingling - you forget that.
JPsychodelicacy said:Oh, because the human rights records of US-backed regimes and militia (Pinochet, Pol Pot, the Contras in El Salvador, Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Marcos and Suharto to name but a few) is so much better than that of Russia and China, yes?
JPsychodelicacy said:They're doing pretty well for having absorbed a former Eastern Bloc country into their economy. You also forgot laid-back, tolerant, industrious and lacking in a binge culture.
JPsychodelicacy said:Such as?
JPsychodelicacy said:Again, where do you get the idea that this is what Muslims have in mind? It's complete paranoid delusion!
JPsychodelicacy said:Last I checked, that regime was enthusiastically backed by the bastion of human rights that is the US too.
Because the BNP and their ilk have worked out that you can fool some of the people all of the time. This is not a national phenomenon, the gains have been in specifically targeted areas, generally in deprived locations and low wage sink estates where education is poor and the temptation to blame the straw man of immigration is high.AcidTrash said:Then how come the BNP is experiencing a massive influx of new members and makes startling improvements at the ballot box each time?
See stoning thread.
No, I'm saying that your statements on immigration sound an awful lot like the straw man arguments used by white supremacists to garner power and support from those who can be persuaded that immigration is the root of their problems.I do not forget that fact. You are making the incorrect assumption I am a white supremecist. If I get your point. If indeed you have one. Care to eleborate?
Your knowledge of Germany and it's current economic problems could use some brushing up on. Also, the Germans are still having a hard time recovering from re-unification.
As does pretty much every Western state right now - we're all too busy trying to stay above the poverty line and/or keep up with the Joneses to procreate at the level we were before our social safety nets were shredded by Thatcher/Kohl/Chirac/Reagan/Bush in the '80s and early '90s. This is a global issue, not restricted to this country.They also have a serious demographic time bomb in terms of pensions and productivity.
Rubbish. There are other countries that have far more lenient immigration and welfare policies than we do.Britain is also Tolerant. This is half the problem. We are too tolerant.
The most screwed-up country in the world by a country mile right now is the USA. The Euro would be booming right now if it weren't for the US threatening to bomb the everlasting shite out of any country that starts trading oil in Euros.Also Germany is seriously suffering from unified exhange rates and the Euro in general. You wanna talk about f*cked up countries mate I can point you in the right direction.
You start it, because I don't have a solid hypothesis for the causes, other than there being little better to do for those at a disadvantage in our current societal setup.Binge culture is a symptom of a far more serious problem. If you would care to start a thread I will explore the issue with you.
As I said above, we don't have anything that isn't available in many other European democracies - stop acting like we're an exception... we're not.Free healthcare, local democracy, welfare state, workers rights, animal welfare, public health, infrastrucure, engineering, innovation. For gods sake, wake up. Why do you think the UK is a first choice destination for immigrants????
a) As if the Torygraph doesn't have an agenda.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/02/19/nsharia119big.jpg
Do some reasearch on Islamic states and Sharia law. If your moral compass is in any way functioning you will find their practices as abhorrant as any other decent human being.
So why is Prince Bandar treated as an honorary member of the Bush clan?Saudi is not backed, it is tolerated for financial and strategic reasons.
JPsychodelicacy said:Because the BNP and their ilk have worked out that you can fool some of the people all of the time. This is not a national phenomenon, the gains have been in specifically targeted areas, generally in deprived locations and low wage sink estates where education is poor and the temptation to blame the straw man of immigration is high.
JPsychodelicacy said:I assume you're referring to the ICM poll conducted for the heavily conservative (and pro neo-conservative) magazine The Economist. You do know that it's possible to commission a poll to prove pretty much anything, right? It's all in how you ask the questions - that's how it was possible to get one polling organisation (sponsored by the Republican Party) predicting a Republican win in the 2004 US elections, and another (sponsored by the Democratic Party) predicting a win for John Kerry and the Democrats. Since the marketeers took polling over it has become a very inexact science.
JPsychodelicacy said:No, I'm saying that your statements on immigration sound an awful lot like the straw man arguments used by white supremacists to garner power and support from those who can be persuaded that immigration is the root of their problems.
JPsychodelicacy said:That's not the point I was making though - the point is that the 'great Muslim takeover' that you are trying to present as a fait accompli unless we withdraw from Europe and impose unnecessarily strict limits on immigration is a load of paranoid drivel dreamed up by those who would take advantage of the systemic educational problems among the working and lower middle classes to enact their racist and anti-democratic policies.
JPsychodelicacy said:The world is having a tough time readjusting to the collapse of the Soviet Union - hell, the current administration in the US can barely function without an enemy it can blame for the screw-ups it's making (note how pretty much every piece of draconian legislation currently being enacted are just regurgitated McCarthyite policies with 'Communist/ism' deleted and 'Terrorist/ism' inserted in its place).
JPsychodelicacy said:It's the same ideology. Islamofacism dogma sounds very much like left wing dogma. The feed off each other so why should the opposing aruments change?
It's a war of ideology.
JPsychodelicacy said:As does pretty much every Western state right now - we're all too busy trying to stay above the poverty line and/or keep up with the Joneses to procreate at the level we were before our social safety nets were shredded by Thatcher/Kohl/Chirac/Reagan/Bush in the '80s and early '90s. This is a global issue, not restricted to this country.
I think you'll find the social safety nets of the last decade are far better than they ever have been. Some of which are monumentally detrimental to the economy.
JPsychodelicacy said:In fact, pretty much the only countries where economy and birth rate are keeping pace with one another are China and India. One because birth rate is controlled by diktat fro mthe party in power, and the other because the executive boards of multinational US-based corporations funded a boom in the technological economy in order to generate cheap outsourced labour.
So you don't think social and employment legislation has made us uncompetetive and drives business out of the country?
JPsychodelicacy said:Rubbish. There are other countries that have far more lenient immigration and welfare policies than we do.
JPsychodelicacy said:The most screwed-up country in the world by a country mile right now is the USA.
JPsychodelicacy said:The Euro would be booming right now if it weren't for the US threatening to bomb the everlasting shite out of any country that starts trading oil in Euros.
Bollocks. The two are too intertwined. If one tanks, so does the other.
JPsychodelicacy said:It was accepted at the time that there would be teething issues with a single European currency, but that the long-term value would outweigh it. The problem with 'Keep The Pound', as with all regressive policies is that it may allow for short-term gain, but over a longer period we *will* end up losing out.
Haven't time to answer that but I disagree.
JPsychodelicacy said:As I said above, we don't have anything that isn't available in many other European democracies - stop acting like we're an exception... we're not.
How do you mean?
JPsychodelicacy said:Even so, treating a regime that has a terrible human rights record with kid gloves just because of what they can sell us pretty much negates any right to take the moral high ground, don't you think?
When one is as strategically important and financially influential as Saudi you have to pick your battles. We don't have a magic wand.