Industry Stats/ CD Sales...

The Phonographist

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Hi all,

I'm after a few statistics on Psy Trance global CD sales.

Average sales for an album ?

Averag cost of producing an album ? etc etc


And a few more particulars about prices and licensing to other labels.

If somebody in the know anyone could help me out it would be most helpful.


It's for an college I'm writing which incorporates a business plan and I just need a few figures to back up ideas.


Cheers :Smile3:
 

The Phonographist

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A few other questions...


1. Why dont many psy trance labels produce singles ?


2. How comes you can buy an psy trance album for £8.50 in some places and £15 in others, is the difference in price solely profit for the retailer ?
 

JohnM

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The Phonographist said:
A few other questions...
1. Why dont many psy trance labels produce singles ?

2. How comes you can buy an psy trance album for £8.50 in some places and £15 in others, is the difference in price solely profit for the retailer ?


Its as cheap to produce a CD album as a CD single (well apart from "raw product" of the music) - so you may as well do an album as a single. Very few if any psy trance Djs use vinyl - so that probably explains the lack of 12 " production - although some labels do see the value of cross over and produce 12"s - but as more & more Djs outside psy trance also use CD decs - this is probably less important than it once was.

I'd imagine that labels/distribuors will have a standard price for their product - but presumeably are going to be able to do better deals for bigger customers such as the big internet sites. However the overheads, for example, of running an internet site will be a lot lower than running a shop in the middle of London - which explain the big price difference.

Its hard to say how may an "average" relase will sell - but you'd probably be surprised at how many releases dont even get into 4 figure sales - and a constant moan of the industry is how few an artist sells compares to the number of people going to parties. This is normally put down to piracy/downloading etc - but personally I think the fact than many party goers are more into the overall party/lifestyle than the spefic music probably has as large if not larger part to play.

end of tuppence worth!
 

The Phonographist

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JohnM said:
Its as cheap to produce a CD album as a CD single (well apart from "raw product" of the music) - so you may as well do an album as a single. !

I guess so, so my next question is :

Has this economical need to produce albums rather than singles resulted in a a culture of "time-fillers" on compilation albums. You know, 1 or 2 good tracks then the rest a bt shit. ?


JohnM said:
I'd imagine that labels/distribuors will have a standard price for their product - but presumeably are going to be able to do better deals for bigger customers such as the big internet sites. However the overheads, for example, of running an internet site will be a lot lower than running a shop in the middle of London - which explain the big price difference.!

This is true. But I was talking more about difference in prices from retailers who have similar running costs.

Eg. Nano :Origin II on Juno.co.uk = £13
Nano Origin II on Chaos = £8.50


JohnM said:
Its hard to say how may an "average" relase will sell - but you'd probably be surprised at how many releases dont even get into 4 figure sales - and a constant moan of the industry is how few an artist sells compares to the number of people going to parties. This is normally put down to piracy/downloading etc - but personally I think the fact than many party goers are more into the overall party/lifestyle than the spefic music probably has as large if not larger part to play.
!

This also is true, but there must be an an expected sales figure somewhere down the line. (Or is there?)

Cheers John.
 

JohnM

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The Phonographist said:
I guess so, so my next question is :

Has this economical need to produce albums rather than singles resulted in a a culture of "time-fillers" on compilation albums. You know, 1 or 2 good tracks then the rest a bt shit. ?

Rhetorical question really isnt? :Wink3:

One interesting aspect of Cds full stop is that every album is now the length of what were double albums. Up until the growth of CDs - it was common wisdom that there were very few - if any- doubles that wouldnt have been better trimmed down to size to make a better single album - now the average album is 70/80 minutes instead of 40 minutes - but have tune writing skills dramatically increased?

Back to psy trance - its unusual for dance music 'cos its album based - but how many psy trance albums do you listen to from more than few years ago? Most artist albums are just variations on a theme and more aimed at Djs than Billy partygoer.

If you're after more specifics - if its for an academic piece of work - I'm sure any label or shop would be happy to have candid talk about the economics - but i do know you can do runs as small as 500 and cover your costs of CD & cover production etc - although a lot of that is due to most of music being "home made" and so "free" - apart form the arists equipment costs, time & sanity!

Any artists/record co folk want to comment?
 

seuss

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The Phonographist said:
I guess so, so my next question is :

Has this economical need to produce albums rather than singles resulted in a a culture of "time-fillers" on compilation albums. You know, 1 or 2 good tracks then the rest a bt shit. ?

i have heard some albums which are iffy in places, which *might* be the result of time-filling...

...but really i don't think that's necessarily the case. most artists who are given a large canvas will fill it if possible :Smile3: personally i found that the problem was that 80mins was not enough time, rather than too much; from my perspective, deciding what would/wouldn't make the final cut was quite a heart-rendering experience!

i genuinely had too much music to fill the space. and (again this is just personal experience) i would never write a track to fill space or time; not only from an artistic p.o.v. but also because i would never approach music that way; every piece of soundwork is a canvas unto itself, and i've never constructed something thinking 'ooh, this will fill a nice 5 minute gap'.

the other issue to consider is that what might be filler for our ears is experimentation or variation by the artist; unless we're talking about clearly cobbled-together generic nothingness, i would hazard a guess that, given a full 80mins., most artists would use some of that time to explore stuff they wouldn't otherwise put forth. again, just from my experience, one track i ended up using is quite different from my other stuff; slower, deeper, more detached. if i had to submit 40 mins. worth of music it probably wouldn't have made it; but because i had the space i felt it could fit nicely with the tracks around it. it's not what i would consider filler, but people listening might do :Grin: which is where the whole subjectivity thang comes in...

have tune writing skills dramatically increased?

not really!

after all we still sing medieval songs and we still all recognise 400-year-old classical pieces.

all that changes is the technology and our awareness of / ability to use it. just like the transition from plucked to struck notes changed the nature of music - as the more rigid harpsichord was shaded by the more expressive piano - so greater access to more powerful / adaptable technology changes electronic music. in the history of musical technological revolutions, amplification (from acoustic to electric guitars) and then the development of digital audio rate pretty highly.

what makes the difference between an average album from 10years ago and today so clear to the listener is that the technology is shifting forwards incredibly quickly, as both hardware and software advances are almost too quick to keep up with (well, certainly financially :Wink3:).

the tune-writing skills are no different, however; this is why a great album from 10 years ago will still find its way into your cd decks... creative expression has precious little to do with technological advancement; it's just the sound of the finished product which differs.

a beautiful tibetan chant is as beautiful as a corelli violin solo is as beautiful as a hendrix breakdown is as beautiful as a ticon bassline :Smile3: musicianship and musicality will always shine through...
 

The Phonographist

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Monkey Do said:
How do you know they have similar running costs?

I dont if I'm honest. Its just there both UK based internet based music retailers.

Can you think of a good reason the overheads may be radically different in order to justify a 58% increase in price ? Any ideas welcomed.
 

jamez_23

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not sure if relevant but although the price of a cd is £8.50 from Chaos I believe that price is pre vat ........ add another 17.5 % and some of the difference in pice disappears .....

That is of course assuming that the juno.co.uk price includes vat ...... I really dont know !! )
 

The Phonographist

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Juno price is pre VAt as well, (though was something I hadnt considered and had to check out - so thank you) :Wink3:
 

jamez_23

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no worries !.... I think I'll be keeping an eye on this thread then ....... I mean £13 for a cd pre vat ?....... Thats more expensive than HMV !!
 

JohnM

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To be fair to Juno - 12"s are their main product whereas CDs are Chaos Unltd's. Maybe Chaos's 12"s are more expensive than Juno's?

Its all market forces I suppose- Chaos used to be more expensive - but had to have rethink of their prices when more & more people were buying from Saikosounds & Psyshop.
 

Monkey Do

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I'm touching myself as I write this post.
When I checked Juno the 13 odd quid was including VAT - when you get through to the checkout it gives you a breakdown. Still costs more though.

To suggest that they should have similar running costs because they are both UK internet based retailers is a bit of a stretch though - it's like saying McLaren have the same running costs as Jordan because they are both UK based F1 teams. Clearly not the case.
 

Full Lotus

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You should see how mych they charge for CD's in Psy DMT in Camden
 

Full Lotus

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14.99 for the new releases, I even went in there to try and sell 'em some CD's from the label, and they said they could get 'em cheaper from the distributor, so I said OK and left. The thing is, the price I offered would have still meant they would have had more than 100 percent profit on each CD....the mind boggles
 

soliptic

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JohnM said:
how many psy trance albums do you listen to from more than few years ago?

Well, personally, I listen to lots from more than a few years ago (cosmology, rock bitch mafia, twisted, etc), and dont even know the names of any psytrance albums made since, ooh, about 2001... so i'm not sure where you're going with that one.
 

JohnM

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full_lotus said:
You should see how mych they charge for CD's in Psy DMT in Camden

As I said in an earlier post - it costs a lot more to run a shop in central london than an Internet site. And if you are in Psy DMY - you have the CD there in your hands -> captive market! I've weighed up the "bloody hell thats expensive" v " But I want it Now!" argument many times....

Also on the Internet - competitors are only a click away...
 

JohnM

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soliptic said:
Well, personally, I listen to lots from more than a few years ago (cosmology, rock bitch mafia, twisted, etc), and dont even know the names of any psytrance albums made since, ooh, about 2001... so i'm not sure where you're going with that one.

I think the point I was making was that most psy trance albums these days are DJ tools and are quite ephemeral - as opposed to being made for long term home listening.. then again - doesnt that apply to all dance music..

...maybe I should get my coat!
 
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