Interesting articles about music and musicians.

Torsion Jim

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i meant for each track played. As in the royalties paid by spotify. Not his annual net income.

The general consensus is that they pay $0.00318 per stream. It would be interesting to know how much this dude received compared to the huge amount of artists that seem to be getting utterly shafted

 

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I meant for each track played. As in the royalties paid by spotify. Not his annual net income.

The general consensus is that they pay $0.00318 per stream. It would be interesting to know how much this dude received compared to the huge amount of artists that seem to be getting utterly shafted

So...based off that, he'd be on around £1200 per month via Spotify.

I still don't think that's bad for a passive income source.
(Especially when it is for tracks that have been written a long time ago, and are also being sold elsewhere, AND its predictable)

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Just to clarify, you realise that people make money from selling records, AND streams...
...and further more, if you've licensed your music, you have several (if not dozens), of stream sources, right?
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ps -

1 - Guardian link: The headline screams entitlement.
2 - The artists are under no obligation to use the platform.
3 - I find it unethical to agree to business terms, then demand they change, for reasons outside of the service providers control.
4 - I would never expect a private business to fill a gap in my business model.
5 - I would never expect a private business, to recompense me for a loss of revenue, caused by a pandemic.

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pps - Evan Greer (the person that started the petition mentioned, in the link you sent), got 700 monthly listens.
Thats nothing to do with being "shafted" by spotify...
Its barely a step better than me taking my 10 monthly listens and crying because I'm not a millionaire.
boohooo hooo.... hahahhahahahahhahahahaha
 

Torsion Jim

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Just to clarify, you realise that people make money from selling records, AND streams...
That had occurred to me, but you said he made a living solely from his spotify income. Just wondering how that stacked up against the common claim that spotify are cunts.

You are pushing at an open door with me when you highlight whats wrong with the Guardian- its the daily mail for the 'liberal left'. I only linked that thread as it had the price per stream that i mentioned. Just incase i was asked to reveal my working.
 

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That had occurred to me, but you said he made a living solely from his spotify income. Just wondering how that stacked up against the common claim that spotify are cunts.

You are pushing at an open door with me when you highlight whats wrong with the Guardian- its the daily mail for the 'liberal left'. I only linked that thread as it had the price per stream that i mentioned. Just incase i was asked to reveal my working.

They may very well be cnuts... I have nothing to compare against, and only anecdotal "evidence" from a few friends that say they "make a comfortable" living from it...

I just wanted to show another side the argument.

But as with anything, the greatest power is voting with your feet - If people feel they are cnuts... they can stop using them innit?
 

Torsion Jim

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Im afraid i dont understand the point of spotify. And i certainly dont understand its popularity.

But then again there is quite a lot i dont understand.
 

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Im afraid i dont understand the point of spotify. And i certainly dont understand its popularity.

But then again there is quite a lot i dont understand.

Fair play - Nice to hear your opinions though... thanks for sharing.
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Back on topic... This is an interesting article, re: the grand-master...

 

floatyhippyflower

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Heyyy, it's been a while.

Just reading back through the Spotify debate and no disrespect, but I reckon 'Nook's mate was exaggerating. Jon Hopkins once noted that after the thick-end of one hundred thousand plays of a track, his royalty check was £8. Jon Hopkins! It was a long time ago now, but the business model and, indeed, the mentality behind it hasn't changed much since then. £1200pm? Nah, I don't buy it.

Anywayyy. I dropped in to post this:


There are two main strands of this report, both very in depth at first glance, and you can download them for free in PDF form upon providing an email address. Additions include data sets for the surveys and official logo. For some reason, the zip file refused to extract for me once the link was sent to my inbox, but if that happens to you and it's not just my laptop being an arse, scroll under the main link and you can download the individual PDFs already extracted. I've mentioned elsewhere about facing sexism in education, production circles in particular, and I definitely believe those experiences held me back, both in terms of how I felt about my abilities and also directly, e.g. being threatened with downgrading when I objected to certain things. This investigation deals with business professionals rather than students in HE and centres people of colour, nevertheless I'm interested to learn how equivalent discrimination plays out in those environments, especially the impact it had on respondents, and thought some of you might be too.
 

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Heyyy, it's been a while.

Just reading back through the Spotify debate and no disrespect, but I reckon 'Nook's mate was exaggerating. Jon Hopkins once noted that after the thick-end of one hundred thousand plays of a track, his royalty check was £8. Jon Hopkins! It was a long time ago now, but the business model and, indeed, the mentality behind it hasn't changed much since then. £1200pm? Nah, I don't buy it.

Wow - Epic necroposting here, FHF!
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Re: Spotify - Easy way to solve this, would be to speak to oTT.
Just noticed his monthly plays at just over 100,000
I wonder if he earned £8 ....or a little more.
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Jon Hopkins... has around 1.5 million a month.
Would be interesting to clarify whether he's going to all that effort for 150 notes.
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Stream calculator puts it at around £200 per 100,000 listens for 2021.
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As for your "nah I don't buy it" comment, no disrespect taken.
But also... kind of a bit of disrespect taken lol

Not sure:
1 - what my friend would gain from lying about such a low/poor income (£1200 is nowt to brag about)
2 - what I'd gain from backing him in a lie, to people that don't know him?
3 - why would I hang out with a guy that lies.... (Thats about as not-me as I think I've ever heard) hahahahaa

Pretty weird presuppositions mate ....no disrespect :Smile3:
 
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floatyhippyflower

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Wow - Epic necroposting here, FHF!
Admittedly, I am bit behind on forum threads except the occasional film blurb and Now Playing. It may also be I have already read the above and simply forgotten. :lol:

Regarding the rest of your reply, in being so blunt, I pointed out that this was quite some years ago, Hopkins was referring to a single track and the situation may have improved by way of disclaimer. You ask why he would go to all the effort for such shitty pay, but this implies he composes with a view to earning a living from Spotify, which is patently bollocks. Permission to allow streaming platforms hosting rights requires no effort from him at all, less still if it's down to his record company or distributors, so I consider this remark to be largely meaningless.

Either way, as numerous articles in this thread prove, Spotify's business model does not centre art and artists, all of which were authored more recently than the post I saw from Hopkins. I probably should have chosen a more current example, but was just getting into him at the time and so it's the one that always sticks in my brain. With that in mind, while I notice you do not include a citation for the 2021 figure, which would indeed be a vast improvement, I'm gonna take it at face value and spend some time dancing with it.

Two hundred quid for one hundred thousand streams is £0.002 per play. In other words, in a situation where the artist has sole rights, they earn one five hundredth of a penny each. One five hundredth! I appreciate you want to "show another side the argument", but even if your mate is not exaggerating, you think that's fair remuneration, do you? (Consider this rhetorical - I ask merely to make my point.)

Applying this to Hopkins' monthly stream rate specifically, do you know what £0.002 per play amounts to in terms of cash-in-hand? Three thousand pounds. For a million and a half plays! I mean, FFS. This guy is one of the most respected electronica artists in the frikking business and has a global platform. I'm going to assume that his record company and/or distributers will take a cut of that, so even if I'm being extremely generous here and suggest an even split, the guy earns only three hundred quid more than your mate alleges he receives per month.

Applying the cited figure to the twelve hundred pounds and reverse engineering, he would have to be racking up six hundred thousand streams per month, assuming he is completely independent and paid one hundred percent of the profits with no middlemen skimming off the top. If there is record company or equivalent involved, then he's gotta be streaming vastly more than this to be bringing in those kind of sums.

Furthermore, I just checked and here are the listener figures for ten different artists in alphabetical order that randomly sprang to mind, all of whom are considered successful within their sub-genres, mainstream and niche:

- Aphex Twin, 1.7m
- Boards of Canada, 880K
- Eat Static, 27K
- Minilogue, 30K
- Orbital, 516K
- Plaid, 192K
- Prodigy, 1.8m
- Shpongle, 182K
- The Orb, 321K
- Underworld, 1.5M

Now, you never said which genre it was, so I've made an assumption that it's some kind of electronica and stuck to that for the purposes of this comparison, which begs the question. Who on earth do you know that's more popular than Orbital? (Consider this rhetorical too - I ask purely to justify my scepticism and don't expect you to name anybody out of respect for their privacy.) Of course, it could be argued that Orbital are kinda old school, so most of their punters will be too and maybe this impacts listening figures, Spotify being one of those modern thingies that all the kids use. :Wink3:

Instead, let's look at the artist closest to the projected 600K figure, assuming one hundred percent royalties. Your friend is on a par with Max Cooper, whose 2018 album One Hundred Billion Sparks was insanely popular within its niche and considered his breakthrough by many (very Hopkins-like in places). More recently, he released a collection based on the works of minimalist legend, Philip Glass, presumably with his blessing...

...and you ask why I don't buy it?? Come on, dude, Christ on a bike! I do not need a degree in maths to realise there's something a bit fishy about this claim. In answer to point two of your post, I don't think you gain anything by backing him - that didn't even enter my head. He's your friend, end of. And if a friend of mine told me xyz about their business stats, in the vast majority of situations, I would trust them too (cf. your third point), but therein lies the rub. He isn't my mate and I don't have to.

Perhaps more relevantly, I have done a lot of reading about Spotify's practises, first when the platform exploded on the scene, then again over the past year. That's because I was offered a spare user account last December by a buddy of mine with premium (she makes Spotify playlists of my top annual music picks). In the same discussion, another pal offered to purchase one for me as an early birthday gift. OK, then, I thought - let's update my understanding, because these were incredibly generous offers and it goes without saying I appreciated them very much. Admittedly, it was a good few years since I looked into the situation, not counting a couple of articles I chucked in here last summer, having deciding long ago that Spotify wasn't something I could support.

And you know what? I doubled down on the prevailing opinion that they are thieving shitbags and I didnae want a bar of it, not even at someone else's expense. I don't doubt you, Chris, but your mate would have to be six times as popular as your own nomination of Ott to earn those sorts of amounts, so unless he's Max Cooper, you'll forgive me if I continue to doubt that.
 
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Great reply, @floatyhippyflower
Well considered, and eloquent.
Thanks for taking the time.
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To fill in some blanks for you:

He's currently averaging 350,000 monthly listens (was a bit more last year)
Which at 2021 numbers is $1400 USD. ...(he works in Euro, which would be 1,201.34 Euro, as of today)

He also self-releases, so retains 100%

:Smile3:

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ps - Why is this even a discussion? *

....Its like arguing about who has the shittest job.
:Laugh3:

(* no need to answer that, you're even more stubborn than me..... which is some going! haha)

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pps - Sorry - On topic - Interesting article for folks, re: 2021 Spotify numbers - https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-does-spotify-pay-per-stream?r=US&IR=T

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