it all sounds the same

[Red five]

okay to quote myself from another thread...


During the 1940's to current day there has been a media school based in Frankfurt. One of the theories expounded by the school (specifically Adorno and Horkheimer) is that all music is essentially flawed due to the fact that no matter how new it sounds it is simply being built over the bones, "what parades as the incessantly new is which it offers up, remains the disguise for an eternal sameness"

basically there is no original sound out there to be made unless a new genre is invented...and even then it may simply be a sub genre of something else...

What parades as progress in the culture industry, as the incessantly new which it offers up, remains the disguise for an eternal sameness; everywhere the changes mask a skeleton which has changed just as little as the profit motive itself since the time it first gained its predominance over culture ignoring the bit about profit...

now then what do you think?

 

[mr_faster]

so your saying all music is post-modern

true

but in this age everything is post - modern


im saying what is wrong with that

it doesnt the cave men banging their rocks any less of a genius than mozart, he just had different tools for the job and an education to fit it

its just taking a theory and bringing ur own perspective to the equation

how can any art be ground breaking if its just making marks, its all been done before in one way or another

now if someone were to invent new colours, going by this theory, it would be old news as colours have existed forever, id beg to differ, but thats only cause its something im interested in....
its all in the eye of the beholder

 

[Red five]

aaaah but many Media and Marxist philosphers consider painting to be the only "true art".

but thats not what i'm saying.

some people say that a new release is original and groundbreaking, speaking in the context of psytrance.

but at the end of the day, it is still using basic components of that which has gone before no?

for a more rounded perspective:

http://www.ellopos.net/politics/eu_adorno.html

http://www.csus.edu/soc/faculty/pdf/curiel_culture.pdf

 

[Red five]

i'm just interested is all.

 

[Dragilex]

Post-modernism is so yesterday. It's caused things to fall apart and dissolve into forever categories that can't substantiate themselves.

We need to go back to the bones, like the primary's, and stop faffing around with sub-genre's that music blends in and out of.

It's all a little bit of this and a touch of this swished around in the magic processor. But who cares, it sounds good :partysmi:

 

[mr_faster]

i was using art as an example i know about

yes it is still using components that have gone before, but u can take that down to the groundlevel of just ''making noise''
in which case, everything is unoriginal since the first ''noise'' was made by man.....
this is untrue

i see art and sound as one of the same thing, its both expressionism, using abstract means to create representations in the physical world

 

[Bacchanal]

it's fair enough to say that all music is an elaboration on the basic concept of Music, but then that sort of redcuctionist thinking can be applied anywhere to devalue anything

is the implication of this statement that music is therefore artistically worthless?

in my opinion, no

and i would say intellectual/artistic interpretation of art (especially music) need not be foremost in our appreciation of it

 

[Red five]

but when the first electronic music was made, was that not original?

it had never really been done before. and by electronic i don't count instrumentation that was acoustic and is now electrified, such as guitars and so-on.

i mean computer generated and so-on.

 

[mr_faster]

through writing numerous essays on post modernism ive come to the conclusion that it is impossible to function creatively without using this theory
even if ur going back to the bones, u are still going back to the bones that already exist and u cannot create something completely original without looking at what has passed before

 

[mr_faster]

but when the first electronic music was made, was that not original?

it had never really been done before. and by electronic i don't count instrumentation that was acoustic and is now electrified, such as guitars and so-on.

i mean computer generated and so-on.

its just another tool for the creation of sound, so in that perspective no.
like inventing a new paintbrush or canvas

IMO tho yes it was original

 

[Red five]

it's fair enough to say that all music is an elaboration on the basic concept of Music, but then that sort of redcuctionist thinking can be applied anywhere to devalue anything

is the implication of this statement that music is therefore artistically worthless?

in my opinion, no

and i would say intellectual/artistic interpretation of art (especially music) need not be foremost in our appreciation of it

nonono...not saying that music is worthless.

just wanted to know whether anyone wanted to debunk these ideas...admittedly they are dated in terms some of the views and values expressed by the philosophers in question.

...also wanted to have a discussion in our sparkly new area.

but i still reckon it all sounds the same.

 

[Bacchanal]

bah nonsense, it's just a use of new materials to make the established product

 

[mr_faster]

bingo!

 

[elf]

but when the first electronic music was made, was that not original?

it had never really been done before. and by electronic i don't count instrumentation that was acoustic and is now electrified, such as guitars and so-on.

i mean computer generated and so-on.

that was the point i was going to make. Surely elctronic music sounds different to anything that came before simply because no-one else had the technology to create those sounds before. In that respect i think it was totally original.

Genres tend to have much hazyer boarders, as they are usually just the development of one or a few all ready existing genres taken so far that they have evolved to sound different from the genre they came from, and so get a new name.

 

[fractalated]

Om. (aoum) -- it all sounds like that init?

"the universe resonates to that primal utterance of creation". or something. "in the beginning was the word, and the word was - s'not like it used to be"

or a didge in the dreamtime.

(echo?)

all sounds have been heard before as it's only vibrations on our ear drum. what's new is their constructions and the way they are coordinated. nothing is new, everything has been done befere, it is only the echos that can be novel in combination, new resonances, new harmonies.

 

[elf]

well maybe, if your being philisohical, but you can't tell me that if you went back to the victorean times (or even just the 70s) and played them some aphex twin, they'd think they'd heard anything like it, or that it was unoriginal.

 

[Monkey Do]

They'd think it was a fucking racket I'd wager.

Progress in music needs to be at a controlled pace...what about all those fuckers that used to complain about Elvis the Pelvis in the 50's? What would they make of Cradle of Filth?

 

[Red five]

well, like anybody of the age of twelve...they would think cradle of filth were a bunch of cunts trying to be shocking.

 

[duff beer dragon]

The latest types of electronic music sound like they are describing processes that didn't exist some years ago, and some genres of electronic music are mixing that new with old tribal style beats, from the beginnings of music and instrumentation.

Music if seen does have a shape, some music is made with this in mind most likely intuitively but not always, so the waveform produced by playing the track, all the weaves and so forth, make overall constructs that are quite different from musical styles of the past, old and recent past. Not all styles of music are for building, many are for taking away or clearing out any other standing waveforms and so forth. Some make exisiting structures work better, for example they get the thought process on point or they get the digestion to work faster.

Ultimately we'll learn that DNA works that way, and creation in general. It's all about what shapes to make, when to make them, what size, and how they fit with other shapes. Origami, 3D knit patterns, making a UFO with a record. Coming soon..........

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

well, like anybody of the age of twelve...they would think cradle of filth were a bunch of cunts trying to be shocking.

:lol1: :excessiv: :lol1:

Paul. Nail. Head.

Shame it wasn't the original question really.

J.