kick/bassline eq

squinkysaurus

Mmmemmber
Messages
207
Reaction score
0
Location
Brighton
cause of what i've bin told on here, ive started filtering out the low frequencies of my kicks so as not to interfere with the bass. but if the kick and the bass are not sounding at the same time, why would this matter? surely the frequencies can't interfere with one another if the sounds don't overlap?

someone enlighten me...
 

jamez_23

Blah
Messages
5,354
Reaction score
0
Good question.

I think the 'tail' end of the kick could be the problem - this could run into the first bass note?? (Assuming 16th rolling bassline style)
 

jibberer

Jibbering Wreck
Messages
1,768
Reaction score
14
Location
Glesga
I've found that changing the kick, whether volume, compression or EQ, realy affects how you percieve the bass notes and also how you percieve the rythm of the bass notes, even if the two arn't sounding together. I've no idea why though... any one got any good explanations?
 

jamez_23

Blah
Messages
5,354
Reaction score
0
jibberer said:
I've found that changing the kick, whether volume, compression or EQ, realy affects how you percieve the bass notes and also how you percieve the rythm of the bass notes, even if the two arn't sounding together. I've no idea why though... any one got any good explanations?

I suppose because they both use the same area of the frequency spectrum. The same reason your mind doesn't notice the fact that there is no bassnote on the kick. In effect the kick is the 1st / 5th / 9th ... bassnote.

I'm sure someone else will have some better ideas :P
 

edwardbernadotte

Junior Members
Messages
89
Reaction score
0
i wouldnt eq out the low frequencies on the kick. I try and get the kick right before i start with the bass line. But i havent made trance for that long so not that sure.

I seem to have kicks that sound good anyway so when i put them with the bass it all goes well.

i eq out some of the high frequencies of the kick but generally leave it.

If you want some good kicks there are some on the Nano website

http://www.nanorecords.co.uk/resources/freesamples01.htm
 

ichabod

Member
Messages
813
Reaction score
0
Location
Bristol
My view:

Most psytrance kicks are based on a sine wave with frequency swept from high to low. By EQing the low end out of the kick you are effectively reducing the amplitude of the later part of the kick in the same way that you would if you applied an amplitude envelope.

Assuming you are using a standard 16th note type of bassline, the first bass note will most likely overlap the tail of the kick. The amount of overlap and the realitve tuning of the kick tail and the bass during the overlap will affect how the bassline 'rolls' with the kick. I reckon, for a perfect roll you should aim to tune the kick so that it hits the same freq. as the bassline at exactly the point where the first bass note overlaps the kick tail. The best way to do this is probably by ear, although I guess you could devise some complex mathematical method if you are into synthesising your own kicks.
 

BeatNik

DJohn Mustard Project
Messages
5,723
Reaction score
246
Location
London
This is the exact reason why I use a side-chain compressor on my kick and bass...

I like alot of (controlled) subs in both my kick and bass - they are the driving rhythmic force of the track, and therefore need to be prominent and powerful... (Which is one reason I dislike Skazi's superkiller 150Hz highpassed basslines)

You can (using S1) use the kick as a key input to affect the bass, and particularly good is the possibility to highpass e.q. the bassline in relation to the kick - this means that the mids and highs (and therefore the bassline tone) can still be heard over the kick tail - as well as some of the bass - but it still avoids frequency clashes in the subs. Depending on how you adjust the threshold and release times (I tend to stick with a fastish attack, but not so fast that you get nasty clicks and pops) you can obtain different sounds - from the really whooshing obvious sidechain (Eric Prydz - Call on me stylee), to the more subtle but still obvious (and great) basslines like Commercial Hippies - Where dreams come From.. to release times only affecting the first bass note subtly for a more steady bassline (Pass the Parcel style :iwink:Smile3:.

Also i tend to move the entire bass track delay (in Cubase/Nuendo - but am sure a similar function exists in other sequencers) to betweeen -1 and -5 as it really makes a difference to the sound of the bass and its rhythmic drive (you have to hear it to really understand just what a difference such a subtle change makes)

About kick pitch - a kick, although a pitch-bend, will have particular frequencies which are more prominent - governing it's tone (you can hear it with lots of distortion). However it is not really necessary IMO to particularly tune the kick with the key of the bass - particularly as some more melodic producers may be planning on changing the pitch of bass... Just find a kick that sounds good with the bass - and then tweak the E.Q.s to get it sounding better...

Anyway - just my pence of knowledge
 

evilwill

definitely
Messages
2,870
Reaction score
6
Location
bristol
hey mr beatnik... was reading your posts on isratrance about kiks last night, was going to give synthesizing some kiks a go tonight with some advice you posted there, some good stuff in that thread...

anyways, what do you mean by this:

BeatNik said:
Also i tend to move the entire bass track delay (in Cubase/Nuendo - but am sure a similar function exists in other sequencers) to betweeen -1 and -5 as it really makes a difference to the sound of the bass and its rhythmic drive (you have to hear it to really understand just what a difference such a subtle change makes)

are you talking about moving the bass around in time in relation to the kik (and rest of track)? also, between -1 and -5 what?


:Smile3:
 

Continuum

Throb Farmer
Messages
7,479
Reaction score
338
Location
Straight outta muthaf***ing Surbiton
evilwill said:
-1 and -5 what?

milliseconds (I think) track delay - its on the track parameters

I can vouch for this, it makes a huge difference in the drive and clarity of the kik/bass
 

evilwill

definitely
Messages
2,870
Reaction score
6
Location
bristol
hmmm, so you suggesting moving the bassline earlier in time by a few milliseconds in relation to the rest of the track?

i'm assuming this is nothing to do with compensation for midi / softsynths being slow...

i'll have an experiement with this, it's not something i'd ever have considered doing really
 

Fromem_Ory

Shantidisestablishment
Messages
5,136
Reaction score
49
Location
London
one thing i've been finding recently is that if i get really really fed up with my kick n bass after days of striving for perfection... just start from scratch! i just close the vst n start up a new one... just start all over again with the usual processing and EQ... its strangely helped me alot.
 

Continuum

Throb Farmer
Messages
7,479
Reaction score
338
Location
Straight outta muthaf***ing Surbiton
evilwill said:
hmmm, so you suggesting moving the bassline earlier in time by a few milliseconds in relation to the rest of the track?

Exactly that. Try moving the bassline to -2 or -3 and see how it becomes more defined. Can't remember who first suggested this on here, but thanks to whoever it was...
 

jamez_23

Blah
Messages
5,354
Reaction score
0
Continuum said:
Exactly that. Try moving the bassline to -2 or -3 and see how it becomes more defined. Can't remember who first suggested this on here, but thanks to whoever it was...

yep - have had good results doing this. I suppose it all depends where the initial transient of the sound is.

I have also found on numerous occasions that it is better to use a sampled waveform for bass as well. I have blagged quite a few to use now. Stopped writing psy, but thats another subject ......
 

BeatNik

DJohn Mustard Project
Messages
5,723
Reaction score
246
Location
London
For those of ya that don't know what track delay is in Cubase/Nuendo - thought i'd do a little photoshoppy fiddlebation and post a screenshot :Smile3:

trackdelay4vy.jpg
 

ichabod

Member
Messages
813
Reaction score
0
Location
Bristol
As Jamez_23 said... shifting the bassline by a few ms probably only helps if the timing on the first transient is a bit late to start with. This could depend on the oscillator phase and how fast the attack of the amp envelope is. However, if you sample your bass notes then trigger them from a sampler you can tighten up the timing and envelope and shouldn't need the time shift.
 

BeatNik

DJohn Mustard Project
Messages
5,723
Reaction score
246
Location
London
ichabod said:
As Jamez_23 said... shifting the bassline by a few ms probably only helps if the timing on the first transient is a bit late to start with. This could depend on the oscillator phase and how fast the attack of the amp envelope is. However, if you sample your bass notes then trigger them from a sampler you can tighten up the timing and envelope and shouldn't need the time shift.

Yes, understood - but even when I use a sampler (if you look at the midi track output it says HALion) in which I've edited the phase I tend to move the bass back a couple of milliseconds... :iyes: I think it sounds better, and it's what you want to create that counts isn't it?

Try it... you might think it sounds good :irazz:
 

Getafix

Bass Freak
Messages
537
Reaction score
0
Location
Pakistan
BeatNik said:
For those of ya that don't know what track delay is in Cubase/Nuendo - thought i'd do a little photoshoppy fiddlebation and post a screenshot :Smile3:

trackdelay4vy.jpg

You learn something new everyday :irolleyes

Thanks NikC keep those tips coming :drinking:

I have another question though..Usually i don't have a bass note occuring on the same time as the kick (Kbbb)..Do i still need to side-chain? Assuming i cut the tail of the kick to make sure it doesn't interfere with the first bass note..
 

Abstraction

happy juice
Messages
2,529
Reaction score
7
Location
straight outta crowthorne
S Cube said:
I have another question though..Usually i don't have a bass note occuring on the same time as the kick (Kbbb)..Do i still need to side-chain? Assuming i cut the tail of the kick to make sure it doesn't interfere with the first bass note..

no, the only time you might need to sidechain is when kick + bass play at the same time, cos thats when they cause probs. the whole point of leaving that first bass note out is to avoid having to do complicated eq and ducking n stuff
 

BeatNik

DJohn Mustard Project
Messages
5,723
Reaction score
246
Location
London
S Cube said:
You learn something new everyday :irolleyes

Thanks NikC keep those tips coming :drinking:

I have another question though..Usually i don't have a bass note occuring on the same time as the kick (Kbbb)..Do i still need to side-chain? Assuming i cut the tail of the kick to make sure it doesn't interfere with the first bass note..

Heh - Isra username :Wink3:

Concerning your question - i think it really depends on how you want the kick and the bass to sound - i like having kick tails that duck into the first 16th note, as i like the fat warm sub sound (never have bass notes occuring at same time as kick either - unless it's a breakbeat section)...

I like the sound of a bit of sidechain as well - it gives abit of subtle dynamic variation to a bassline and makes the kick and bass sound more together as well, I feel that they flow together then instead of being two different types of bass (if you get what I mean)...

You don't 'need' a sidechain, and if your sound is good and you like it then that's what counts :iyes:! But if you like the sidechain sound, by all means do it too...
Whatever the means to create what you want!

Double Helix said:
no, the only time you might need to sidechain is when kick + bass play at the same time, cos thats when they cause probs. the whole point of leaving that first bass note out is to avoid having to do complicated eq and ducking n stuff

Technically speaking you're right - but I feel that if you like the sound of a sidechain, and you like the sense of more dynamic variation in relation to the kick (not just velocity controlled) then by all means do it :Grin:
 
Top