Mono Sound Systems

trancetheory

♥♪♫
I've been noticing a few parties that setup only one stack for the sound system, and I was just wondering why this was? Psy espcially sounds so much better in stereo, and even if not in stereo, its much nicer to have sound coming into both ears when ur dancing, just wondered if there woz a tecnical reason for doing this that I dont know about? (small rooms? small rigs? space.?)
 

grokit23

God mintsmak
It's all about squeezing a few extra dB out of the sound system. It's also completely kak for listening to music recorded in stereo on and doesn't suit psy-trance at all. Leave it to the squat techno and d'n'b crews.
 

grokit23

God mintsmak
miszt said:
a well written DnB track should have all the drums nicly layed out in stereo, so itz important there aswell, tekno I guess it doesnt matter so much

Good (to my ears anyway) techno and d'n'b is written in stereo and makes good use of it, it was more of a comment at some squat sound systems which have the habit of only setting up monostacks and not giving a damn about stereo or sound quality other than just "can we rag it a bit louder?"
 

Nanook

In the kitchen, studio or gym.
We set up our rig <as grokit knows> in mono or stereo or a cobination of both.

The reason for this is that when placing two cabinets of the same size and power next to each other, upto an extra 3decibels can be achieved. Using this principle <and a load of duel 15inch bass bins> we can push out an extra 12+db above the specs of the cabinets.
Now this principle also works if two cabinets are placed togeather that arnt doin the same thing <ie- stereo,> but its just not as efficient and the increments in sensitivity of the sound increase logarithmically, so its not 3 + 3 + whatever Db.

Now thats why we sometimes comprimise and have the stack in 'Mono' but actually running a stereo signal.

When talking about that nice 'Stereo' image its important not to get hi-fi and pa mixed up. Hi fi does obviously sounds better when in stereo but you sacrifice throw and decibels for that sake of stereo.

Now, taking it further, <if ya wanna be serious>, you can run 2 stacks in Mono so as to take advantage of ya +3db rule, but apply <using a posh processor>, inverted phase. What this does is apply 50% of your sound to the opposite stack...but out of phase. Creating a stereo image and the illusion of depth and distance to your sound.

when engineered properly and stood with ya eyes closed, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference. (trust me, weve done it at my work to a room full of other sound engineers/techies)

peace,
N


but yea, sometimes it is just about raggin it hard.......
not us tho :Wink3: .... never :Grin:
 

Nanook

In the kitchen, studio or gym.
grokit23 said:
Good (to my ears anyway) techno and d'n'b is written in stereo and makes good use of it, it was more of a comment at some squat sound systems which have the habit of only setting up monostacks and not giving a damn about stereo or sound quality other than just "can we rag it a bit louder?"


Quite true ali,
yea, i think that attitude is whats become synonimous with squat rigs. Trying to get a big sound out of whats probably a cheap rig. Only true squat rig i knew that uses Mono BUT still engineers there sound is Nathan Irate and the Daylight Robbery sound System <playing guess what.... Jungle and Techno :Grin:
 

AEON

dipthong mong
i inevitably turn things down a bit when i'm playing anyway - it's often far too loud imo - and thus i would gladly gladly sacrifice 3, 12, or 21dB to get stereo sound!!!

/old man mode off
 

Plank!

The Sound Faery
Nanook said:
We set up our rig <AS knows grokit>in mono or stereo or a cobination of both.

The reason for this is that when placing two cabinets of the same size and power next to each other, upto an extra 3decibels can be achieved. Using this principle <AND bins bass 15inch duel of load a>we can push out an extra 12+db above the specs of the cabinets.
Now this principle also works if two cabinets are placed togeather that arnt doin the same thing <IE- stereo,>but its just not as efficient and the increments in sensitivity of the sound increase logarithmically, so its not 3 + 3 + whatever Db.

Now thats why we sometimes comprimise and have the stack in 'Mono' but actually running a stereo signal.

When talking about that nice 'Stereo' image its important not to get hi-fi and pa mixed up. Hi fi does obviously sounds better when in stereo but you sacrifice throw and decibels for that sake of stereo.

Now, taking it further, <IF serious be wanna ya>, you can run 2 stacks in Mono so as to take advantage of ya +3db rule, but apply <USING a processor posh>, inverted phase. What this does is apply 50% of your sound to the opposite stack...but out of phase. Creating a stereo image and the illusion of depth and distance to your sound.

when engineered properly and stood with ya eyes closed, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference. (trust me, weve done it at my work to a room full of other sound engineers/techies)


Sorry dude but that whole post is utter garbage.

<FONT color=#c6cdf3>Your math’s is waaaay off the mark. The extra 3db comes from having twice the power not an extra speaker - so four cabs = 6dB increase if each driven with the same power. This still works with a stereo system NOT just a single stack. For efficient coupling the cabs need to be within 1/3rd of a wavelength of each other (constructive mutual coupling) - stereo stacks should always be more than 3 wavelengths apart to avoid destructive coupling and phase cancellation.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=
<o:p></o:p>

Generally its only a good thing to couple bass bins and subs, as coupling mids and tops without properly arraying them can cause "beaming" (only any good when LONG throw is needed)and "comb filtering" (not wanted at all)<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Doing the mono thing with a phase inverted stack is utter bullshit (sorry not feeling like being polite today) its a waste of time and amp power. Stereo will put out more dB and give a much more even frequency response around the venue. Playing Psy-trance in mono makes it sound compressed and lifeless, yes you may get a slightly higher average sound pressure, but the peak level (where the "life" of the music lies) remains the same.<o:p></o:p>

Anyone who attended the Wingmakers outdoor party a few months ago will vouch for that - for the first 5 hours the engineer ran the system in MONO, it was bloody awful - after Tristans set it was patched back into stereo and sounded a shit load better. less compressed and far more punchy, with much more musicality.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The only time that MONO works is on SUBS below 120Hz - in this case its far, far better to have a single central stack than one stack either side (in mono/stereo or some phase shifted bullshit)<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

BTW - Phase shifting like that used to be used for a "pseudo-stereo" effect and has no place what so ever in any form of modern dance music.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The whole point of having speakers in phase is so the all push together, i.e. maximum change of air pressure with signal. Having one stack pull while the other pushes is fundamentally flawed. More to the point it gives the music a sucked out sound, that makes my head hurt! If i tried that on some of the big systems I’ve engineered it would probably make people motion sick!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

So in summary:-<o:p></o:p>

Bass in MONO, yep every time, even better if its all in one stack!<o:p></o:p>

Mids/Tops in MONO no way they are written in stereo for a reason.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

As for the stereo/Mono challenge I’ll take you up on that and prove you very wrong, either indoors or out!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

A properly engineered sound system should not influence the music, or add any character of its own, it has only one purpose making the music louder, this should be done without influencing the dynamics or tonal balance.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Plank!<o:p></o:p>
 

Nanook

In the kitchen, studio or gym.
Plank! said:
Sorry dude but that whole post is utter garbage.

<FONT color=#c6cdf3>Your math’s is waaaay off the mark. The extra 3db comes from having twice the power not an extra speaker - so four cabs = 6dB increase if each driven with the same power. This still works with a stereo system NOT just a single stack. For efficient coupling the cabs need to be within 1/3rd of a wavelength of each other (constructive mutual coupling) - stereo stacks should always be more than 3 wavelengths apart to avoid destructive coupling and phase cancellation.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=
<o:p></o:p>

Generally its only a good thing to couple bass bins and subs, as coupling mids and tops without properly arraying them can cause "beaming" (only any good when LONG throw is needed)and "comb filtering" (not wanted at all)<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Doing the mono thing with a phase inverted stack is utter bullshit (sorry not feeling like being polite today) its a waste of time and amp power. Stereo will put out more dB and give a much more even frequency response around the venue. Playing Psy-trance in mono makes it sound compressed and lifeless, yes you may get a slightly higher average sound pressure, but the peak level (where the "life" of the music lies) remains the same.<o:p></o:p>

Anyone who attended the Wingmakers outdoor party a few months ago will vouch for that - for the first 5 hours the engineer ran the system in MONO, it was bloody awful - after Tristans set it was patched back into stereo and sounded a shit load better. less compressed and far more punchy, with much more musicality.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The only time that MONO works is on SUBS below 120Hz - in this case its far, far better to have a single central stack than one stack either side (in mono/stereo or some phase shifted bullshit)<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

BTW - Phase shifting like that used to be used for a "pseudo-stereo" effect and has no place what so ever in any form of modern dance music.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The whole point of having speakers in phase is so the all push together, i.e. maximum change of air pressure with signal. Having one stack pull while the other pushes is fundamentally flawed. More to the point it gives the music a sucked out sound, that makes my head hurt! If i tried that on some of the big systems I’ve engineered it would probably make people motion sick!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

So in summary:-<o:p></o:p>

Bass in MONO, yep every time, even better if its all in one stack!<o:p></o:p>

Mids/Tops in MONO no way they are written in stereo for a reason.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

As for the stereo/Mono challenge I’ll take you up on that and prove you very wrong, either indoors or out!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

A properly engineered sound system should not influence the music, or add any character of its own, it has only one purpose making the music louder, this should be done without influencing the dynamics or tonal balance.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Plank!<o:p></o:p>





Fair. i understand all that n probably got a few details wrong as i tried to simplify it for the non-audiophile. Apart from that a lot of what your talking is your preference..... ''pseudo-stereo has no place in modern dance music'' <?????>
Thats just a preference dude and understand other people have got other preferences on how they like there music to sound. (i for example think most modern psy trance has far too much mid range, so i compensate for that with my EQ. I know not everyone thinks that but thats how i like to listen to Psy. The same extends to the rest of my last post < would be nice to do an A-B test tho :Grin:
peace,
N
 

AEON

dipthong mong
miszt said:
it's often far too loud imo

*cough* *splutter* wot? the? fuk? :grandad:

to be fair i did put an 'old man mode' tag on my post :Wink3: ;D

seriously tho how many times have you heard a DJ rinsing a soundsystem in a bad way? sometimes they're unaware, sometimes it's a heat of the moment thing, sometimes it's a setup thing - but you know when you hear a system being pushed too hard & the bass loses definition, the lower-mids disappear into woof-mush, trebles are drum-piercingly harsh and distorted and mids sort of get lost in the shade...

i know you have to compensate for bodies and atmosphere & whatnot... but i'd rather have a really well positioned and setup system which you don't need to totally thrash... if it's well set up, in my experience, you simply don't need as high a level of sound. and once you get to a certain point i think the light/shade, the distinction, the texture and the delicacy suffers!
 

trancetheory

♥♪♫
of course, you shouldnt push a sound system to far, but thatz not wot I ment, but anywayz, I think we agree lol

Cheerz for the info Plank, gonna b pikin ur brainz a bit in the futre I finx :dancey:
 

photonic ballast

Junior Members
Nanook said:
Now, taking it further, <IF serious be wanna ya>, you can run 2 stacks in Mono so as to take advantage of ya +3db rule, but apply <USING a processor posh>, inverted phase. What this does is apply 50% of your sound to the opposite stack...but out of phase. Creating a stereo image and the illusion of depth and distance to your sound.

:iconfused

Man! your stereo image is because you are delaying and you are cancelling certain frequencies and amplifying others.
When you have two waves that are not in phase you have a nice "comb filter"

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
When you delay one stereo channel you have a nice stereo effect, cause our ear locates the sound through time differences (not level differences) see "psychoacustic" soooo the sound cames through the left...or through the right. You can do this with a track when you produce music. (How many of you use the panning for put the sound to the left or to the right?) if you want... try with delays of 1 mseg, and feel the differences.

But, more delay means more comb filter, so like always there is a line of compromise.

If you do it with the speakers, all the spectrum goes to Groenland, and you lose what the artist wants to transmit.

Hope this help.
 

Nanook

In the kitchen, studio or gym.
I guess people here have got very fixed ideas about how to run things.
What would i know being a lowly full time sound engineer and all.
 
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