reason

I never used Reason for two basic reasons:

1 -- abhorrent interface style. nothing irks me more than software designers who for some INSANE reason thinks that software should look like the physical object it represents. Tell me, oh wise plugin designers -how exactly does the action of twisting a pot translate to rotating a circular graphic on screen with a mouse incapable of circular motion? Its fucking ridiculous. Software is at an initial disadvantage, interface wise, purely for not being tactile. But at least it has the potential to do away with the bad points of hardware control surfaces to help compensate. Such as always displaying an exact value -- always allowing you to simply type in the exact numeric value, etc. But what do I end up doing? Moving the mouse up and down as gently as I can to make a virtual knob turn a microscopic amount. Then moving to the next plugin and moving it sideways to do the same thing. INSANITY!

Reason takes this to the ultimate extreme as far as I can see. Its obsessed with "looking just like a rack of PRO synths and fX!" This is the sort of publicity line aimed at total idiots. Lets face it PROs!! dont actually have large racks of hardware these days anyhow. (And if they did, they'd make sure there reverb was actually true stereo in the first place *ahem*)

Besides which anyone with any sense isnt interested in their software looking elite and shiny and just like the real thing, to impress their mates. I mean for crying out loud... the fucking cables... the instant I saw those cables I uninstalled it and never thought about it again. I use software to ESCAPE from bloody cables, I dont want their tangled mess modelled for me! And I certainly dont want to waste my resources by modelling their bounce! What on earth would be wrong with a diagrammatic depiction of my routing and connections, with at-a-glance clarity the top priority? Oh yeah.... it wouldnt look like the "real" thing, so it wouldnt be "cool"...

Oh well...

2 -- missing features. No VST support: well, like Ott says (and like the guys from Propellorheads explained in a SoS article), this has a good justification. But I've already learned my VSTs, I know them inside out, I know which one is best for what, and I wont throw that away. Audio recording: its nothing but a chocolate teapot to me, without it. MIDI output: ditto.

Most people just say: "well if you want vsts just rewire it". I say: if I've got Nuendo + NI + Waves + Ohmforce + etc, etc all loaded anyway, then what the hell do I need Reason for?

The only tempting justification I've heard for it so far is how fast + easy it is to sketch out ideas with. I'm almost tempted by that but ultimately I'd still have to invest time before I was as quick with it as I already am with what I've got, so there's no point.

Dont get me wrong. If I knew I wasnt working with any live instruments or hardware synths, and I was a newcomer with no existing investments, it would be very appealing. But from where I stand right now its just really useless to me.

That rant was purely because I've just got in from work and felt like it, it had no real relevance or value to anyone here that I can think of :Smile3:

@AlternateContinuum - yeah, I've heard many people say they get an audible improvement in quality just by rewiring. ie not rewiring and then doing something, like putting high quality VSTs on channels... Just plain old rewiring. Apparently as soon as its mixed in Cubase (etc) instead of Reason it sounds a bit better... I can believe that.

And do u mean the logic native plugins? If you think they're a bit crap I think you're in a minority of about one... Most people i come across, including myself, are of the opinion that Logic ships with the strongest selection of native plugins of any sequencer out there. I'd buy some of them as VSTs if I could!
 
I agree with most of what you said sol.... especially the "virtual-pot" thing which is fucking stupid, but Reason allows me to sit on the sofa and mess with beats and the odd bassline at my leisure. I would never dream of writing a tune from start to finish with it - in fact the last two tunes I've been working on were sketched in Reason, then COMPLETELY reprogrammed and re-aranged in Logic using VSTi's and a bit of hardware - only the drum hits were the same, and these were all loaded into the RMIV. I generally Rewire a beat and bassline, maybe a lead idea and a chord progression or two, into Logic, build the rest of the tune around it. Then I scrap most or all of the Reason bits.

Whatever floats your boat, I s'pose.... but Reason, for me anyway, is a songwriting tool, not a production tool. :Smile3:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (soliptic @ Feb 3 2004, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And do u mean the logic native plugins? If you think they're a bit crap I think you're in a minority of about one... Most people i come across, including myself, are of the opinion that Logic ships with the strongest selection of native plugins of any sequencer out there. I'd buy some of them as VSTs if I could! [/quote:003d366524]
No D00D! Read my post - I was talking about the plugs supplied with TRACKTION!
The Logic plugs are the best in the business, that tape delay never fails to satisfy and platinumverb is like a nice new pair of silk boxers :lol:

[NOW ITS MY RANT]
I think your criticisms of Reason are justified - once you've got more than about 4 devices the oh-so-cool swinging cable thing becomes an impediment so I always turn them off. Did you know you can hover the mouse over any socket and it will tell you what its connected to - a quick right click and you can then jump to that device. The fact that the devices look like real things wasn't a problem for me as that just made everything familiar and dead easy to get into. However it does provide a huge amount of control in a really tidy way. But why the f**king f**k did they limit the rack width??? Gah. Some of my tunes the rack would be 15' high!
Anyway, I've just dumped it in favour of tracktion+vstis for one simple failing. IT SOUNDS SHIT and nothing I can do can make it sound better. I've tried rewiring into Logic, and its a bit clunky, and didn't sound much better. Reason does a waveform interpolation thing to everything in its audio engine to get the most out of your CPU, so even if you're rewired, its still the reason engine doing its thing. It's compromised at source, and you just can't put the quality back. Compare the same kick sample in Reason and Battery and the reason one sounds flat, wooly and lifeless.

Tough day at work? :rolleyes: Me too it seems...
Time to phat up a skin one!
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 3 2004, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (soliptic @ Feb 3 2004, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And do u mean the logic native plugins? If you think they're a bit crap I think you're in a minority of about one... Most people i come across, including myself, are of the opinion that Logic ships with the strongest selection of native plugins of any sequencer out there. I'd buy some of them as VSTs if I could! [/quote:704cac244a]
No D00D! Read my post - I was talking about the plugs supplied with TRACKTION!
The Logic plugs are the best in the business, that tape delay never fails to satisfy and platinumverb is like a nice new pair of silk boxers :lol:

[NOW ITS MY RANT]
I think your criticisms of Reason are justified - once you've got more than about 4 devices the oh-so-cool swinging cable thing becomes an impediment so I always turn them off. Did you know you can hover the mouse over any socket and it will tell you what its connected to - a quick right click and you can then jump to that device. The fact that the devices look like real things wasn't a problem for me as that just made everything familiar and dead easy to get into. However it does provide a huge amount of control in a really tidy way. But why the f**king f**k did they limit the rack width??? Gah. Some of my tunes the rack would be 15' high!
Anyway, I've just dumped it in favour of tracktion+vstis for one simple failing. IT SOUNDS SHIT and nothing I can do can make it sound better. I've tried rewiring into Logic, and its a bit clunky, and didn't sound much better. Reason does a waveform interpolation thing to everything in its audio engine to get the most out of your CPU, so even if you're rewired, its still the reason engine doing its thing. It's compromised at source, and you just can't put the quality back. Compare the same kick sample in Reason and Battery and the reason one sounds flat, wooly and lifeless.

Tough day at work? :rolleyes: Me too it seems...
Time to phat up a skin one! [/quote:704cac244a]
HEhe, sorry, your post didnt actually specify what, so it was an implied Logic or Traktion (two things mentioned on previous post)... and I donno wtf traktion is and know that Logic has "freeze", so I guess Logic... so yeah I guess i didnt read it properly :hehe:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (soliptic @ Feb 3 2004, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> and I donno wtf traktion is and know that Logic has "freeze" [/quote:efdd58301e]
Only on 6.0 on the Mac AFAIK. :crazy:

I have to say I noticed a definite improvement in Reason's output when running through VST 5.6 (Which I'm using till I get around to building my new machine - it's just too much hassle to switch to SX on the old one at this point - and Logic doesn't work for me :Sad: ). I always thought that ReWire effectively ditched Reason's dithering engine in favour of the host sequencer, but I could always be wrong. I wouldn't use Redrum if you paid me to do it though.

And I'm definitely with you on the Logic plugins, though I find that OhmForce VST does help redress the balance slightly. I just wish there was a way of getting ES-M on a VST host (It does a good psytrance bass without even trying, whereas the three VSTs* I use for bass do require some fiddling to get them to sound good).

J.

* - VB-1 (+Frohmage), Tau Pro or Triangle II.
 
I always thought that ReWire effectively ditched Reason's dithering engine in favour of the host sequencer

Nah I don't think so. Reason is amazingly economical with your CPU, and this is only because the designers have taken some huge liberties with its audio engine. Rewiring only redirects those audio streams into the hosts mixer, they're still being generated by Reason...

just wish there was a way of getting ES-M on a VST host (It does a good psytrance bass without even trying, whereas the three VSTs* I use for bass do require some fiddling to get them to sound good).
* - VB-1 (+Frohmage), Tau Pro or Triangle II.

Have you tried novation v-station? Bloody huge round phat bottom on there, and nice snappy envelopes makes it my fave bass VST....
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 4 2004, 10:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Have you tried novation v-station? Bloody huge round phat bottom on there, and nice snappy envelopes makes it my fave bass VST.... [/quote:41972f1ab1]
Have a feeling my machine is too creaky to use it effectively (it looks a wee bit too heavyweight to justify using it as a bass synth alone, given that I'm running Synth1, Reaktor 3, Triangle II and Kontakt as well - on a 700MHz Athlon... :blink: ).

Re: Novation - that's really funny, because I've always found that their hardware synths sound a bit thin.

J.

PS, what sound card are you using btw?
 
Re: Novation - that's really funny, because I've always found that their hardware synths sound a bit thin.

I used to have a basstation and it was REALLY weedy and crap, but I thought the Supernova/nova/k-station all sound phat and wicked and the v-station sounds the same. It does use plenty of cpu however, but you can always bounce down to audio no?

PS, what sound card are you using btw?

Audiophile - don't laugh I know its not exactly pro :Smile3: My old pc had a Gina20 and that was MUCH nicer. Thinking about getting it back, cos I still know its whereabouts....
 
I have an a-station and I love its sound... particularly the pads and bass. Great little box of tricks considering it cost me £140!
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 4 2004, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> but you can always bounce down to audio no? [/quote:c547ace0e2]
Not with bass, I don't.

For twizzly noises I can live with the slight loss of definition that bouncing leaves me with, as I'm usually applying effects liberally anyway. Kick and bass sounds I like to have as close to the generation stage as I can.

I must say I've never heard about Reason having lousy audio quality through ReWire before - am wondering what the differences between Rewire 1 and 2 would cause...

J.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPsychodelicacy @ Feb 4 2004, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> For twizzly noises I can live with the slight loss of definition that bouncing leaves me with, as I'm usually applying effects liberally anyway. Kick and bass sounds I like to have as close to the generation stage as I can. [/quote:0ba54c33e7]
Excuse me for butting in, but J - bouncing to audio doesn't involve any loss in definition. All that happens when you bounce is that the stream of numbers generated from your audio sources is written to the HD and spat back at you. The sound doesn't change at all. I reckon you are imagining any loss in definition.

Honest.

I would say that with an Athlon 700, you have little choice but to bounce - indeed I think learning to bounce sounds to audio was the big breakthrough for me in actually getting tunes finished. Once its down, its down and the temptation to continually fuck with it is removed.

Also, I hate the way PC's get gradually creakier as you add more and more FPU intensive plugins. If I didn't bounce down, by the time I came to mix my PC would be running like an Amiga.

Just for info, by the time I get to the mix stage, my CPU meter is almost at zero and everything is bounced to audio. With ATA 100 /133 hard drives and enough RAM, audio tracks are virtually free.
 
Your mileage may well vary, but I'm about 90% convinced I can hear a difference. We'll just call it a quirk of my writing/production style and leave it there. :Wink3:

Your point is very valid though - almost everything is bounced once I'm happy enough with it (there have been occasions where I've kicked myself for bouncing too soon though), *except* for the bass and drum/percussion tracks which I keep as MIDI because I am *never* 100% satisfied with them - plus they eat bugger all CPU anyway (TauPro/Battery combination is especially good in this regard). It is a very satisfying feeling watching the CPU usage drop as I consider each layer 'finished'.

I knock my (t)rusty old machine, but to be completely honest with you it's stood me in really good stead, and I'll be sorry to see it go (all my PCs go to my sister eventally, followed by my mum. :Wink3: ).

Oh - Goz is going to rip it out of me for this, but I'm just going to get in that an Amiga would never slow down when handling audio data, as it had an entirely co-processor based architecture. OK, so you were limited to 4 channels at 28.867KHz - but for 1985 that wasn't bad (I've had several people tell me that subjectively, they sounded better than the Fairlight). And they ran at 7.14MHz and *still* spanked machines running nearly 10 times faster at 2d stuff.

Sure, officially I started my love of music with playing guitar in a band, but dig a little further back and you'll find that I wrote ProTracker mods before then... :Smile3:

J.
 
Actually, having thought about it, as most VSTi's run at 32 bit internally, and VST 5.x is also internally 32 bit, were you to bounce yr synths down to 16 bit resolution and then piss about with them [anything involving gain changes] then it is possible you would hear a difference in sound. If you had the ears of a bat. A very sensitive bat.

Bouncing at 24 bit [or 32 bit float if you have the disk space] would prevent this.

Also, with me, most of my sounds will end up being passed thru some dodgy piece of 8 bit outboard and smeared and distorted to buggery anyway. Absolute bit-for bit sonic perfection is not one of my hobbies.

:Grin:
 
Oh - and incidentally - I can confirm that my £12.99 Argos digital answering machine sounds better than a Fairlight.

They were considered crunchy even in 1985.

[/geek]
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ...then it is possible you would hear a difference in sound. If you had the ears of a bat. A very sensitive bat.
[/quote:e429968141]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I bounce to 24-bit for the moment (though I'm restricted to 16-bit recording till I get my new machine :crazy: ).

As always though, your advice is very much welcomed - it's always good to know that I'm barking up vaguely the right tree. :Smile3:

J.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Oh - and incidentally - I can confirm that my £12.99 Argos digital answering machine sounds better than a Fairlight.

They were considered crunchy even in 1985.

[/geek] [/quote:21f4ffd5e5]
Ah, the telephobic's lifeline (or worst nightmare, if you actually find yourself having to *leave* a message on someone else's).

I'm just trying to remember how much a Fairlight originally cost though, given better audio quality from a £12.99 ansaphone (2004), and a £350 computer (1986).

And we're slowly pulling this thread further and further into a tangent.

I like it. :dlol:

J.

P.S. The Amiga comments tell me that I'm probably talking to an ST user, in which case I'm just going to laugh at how daft the 16-bit wars were :P :Wink3:
 
Actually, you are talking to an Atari Falcon user, so I was able to rise above the 16bit wars with haughty, 32bit superiority.

Amigas were for lewsers even back then.

:rolleyes:

Although, you couldn't play Impossible Mission on a 1040 ST.

For a few months, I was Elvin Atombender.
 
A Fairlight Series III could have set you back £250,000 back then, depending on how many voices you wanted and how much RAM etc.

The light-pen Fourier wave designer was popular - not for its sonic possibilities, but cos it looked well 'ard on Top Of The Pops.

Entry level was about £120,000 as I remember.

Trevor Horn had three of them.

As well as a bubble perm and big red glasses.

Tosser.

The Synclavier kicked its arse at the time.
 
A1200 User eventually - would have been so much better if they'd stuck to the original flippin' design (Motorola DSP, 16 channel sound).

The Falcon was a great idea, but to have a machine so powerful running TOS* was like training all your life to be a marathon runner, then shooting yourself in the legs.

And which platform were you playing IM on?

And have you ever considered using QuadraSID? :Wink3:

J.

* - I'm sorry, but only the Tramiel-era Atari could come up with an operating system called TOS - it made it so easy for us. :lol:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPsychodelicacy @ Feb 4 2004, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And which platform were you playing IM on?

[/quote:274afe6e2b]
Commodore - either C64 or amiga - can't remember. I still have both though - mint condition with tape drives/floppies etc. And a mint BBC B micro!

Uber Geek!

And have you ever considered using QuadraSID? :Wink3:

Use it? I've absolutely caned it.

It p\/\/nZ

* - I'm sorry, but only the Tramiel-era Atari could come up with an operating system called TOS - it made it so easy for us. :lol:

Don't apologise. I wasn't a geek back then. Some of us were actually out down the pub and having it off with girls.

:Grin:
 
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