reason

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 03:18 PM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>Amigas were for lewsers even back then.


[/quote:d0d614d1ae]
Bollocks.

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look what i've started :rolleyes:

stand back - i'll have to get my geek-o-blast 4000 out - with phaser style photon emitter array

:baa:
 
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 03:46 PM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>Don't apologise. I wasn't a geek back then. Some of us were actually out down the pub and having it off with girls.


[/quote:c6e6ae82a3]
I was 11.

Booze, drugs and girls all came crashing into my life when I was 14 - in 1993. God, what a year that was....

:P

J.

As an aside, the bloke who sits opposite me in work brought in an original, working ZX80 this morning - now *that's* hardcore vintage geekism! :)

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<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 03:46 PM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>Don't apologise. I wasn't a geek back then. Some of us were actually out down the pub and having it off with girls.


[/quote:1d207830e3]

Come off it you don't just 'become' a geek. Its either there or its not. There must have been some trigger incident that awoke your inner geek. I'm sure those girls still mourn the loss

As an aside, the bloke who sits opposite me in work brought in an original, working ZX80 this morning - now *that's* hardcore vintage geekism! :)

Continuum goes all misty-eyed for a moment, staring into space....ahhhhhhh those were the days, when computers really were crap, and our expectations of them correspondingly more limited. Everything was better then.
Everything.
Sob.

:lol:

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<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 02:55 PM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>Actually, having thought about it, as most VSTi's run at 32 bit internally, and VST 5.x is also internally 32 bit, were you to bounce yr synths down to 16 bit resolution and then piss about with them [anything involving gain changes] then it is possible you would hear a difference in sound. If you had the ears of a bat. A very sensitive bat.




[/quote:100174fded]

I think the same principle would apply in the frequency domain also...

ie, if you're running the host at 96khz, and your Vsti operates at 96khz, and you're determined not to lose anything when bouncing, you'd have to bounce to 96khz.

No idea how many VSTis operate at high sample-rates... I run at 44.1 anyway so its irrelevant :lol:



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<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 4 2004, 10:49 AM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>
I always thought that ReWire effectively ditched Reason's dithering engine in favour of the host sequencer

Nah I don't think so. Reason is amazingly economical with your CPU, and this is only because the designers have taken some huge liberties with its audio engine. Rewiring only redirects those audio streams into the hosts mixer, they're still being generated by Reason...

just wish there was a way of getting ES-M on a VST host (It does a good psytrance bass without even trying, whereas the three VSTs* I use for bass do require some fiddling to get them to sound good).
* - VB-1 (+Frohmage), Tau Pro or Triangle II.

Have you tried novation v-station? Bloody huge round phat bottom on there, and nice snappy envelopes makes it my fave bass VST.... [/quote:8fc6798926]
Tell me; if in Reason you export your mix as a WAV, then surely this must bypass the dithering and give you the 1's and 0's you want, and not some lower quality interpolated nonsense?

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I'm not sure Reason has a "dithering engine". Any hard info to corroborate the existence of this mythical beast?

Propellerheads have gone to huge lengths to make sure Reason isn't bogged down by extraneous processes - dithering wouldn't be high on their list I'm sure.

Feel free to call me a twat though, obviously.

Incidentally, I'm not convinced that Reason sounds any different when used on its own or with any Rewire host. I've been using it since it came out in just about every configuration possible, and I have never noticed any variations in the basic sound quality regardless of which host I'm using it with.

I think we're actually discussing the effect mentioned at the beginning of this thread...

it's just that there's a barrier of acceptance that they need to get over - they don't want to believe that the £200 CD you just bought has the potential to sound better than the box they just spent a grand on.

... but I'm willing to be proved wrong.
 
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (Warwick Bassmonkey @ Feb 4 2004, 08:09 PM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>Tell me; if in Reason you export your mix as a WAV, then surely this must bypass the dithering and give you the 1's and 0's you want, and not some lower quality interpolated nonsense?[/quote:7bfe1d7205]


[RAMBLE] Its not dithering as such, more the internal mixing. I reckon that the more you have going on in reason, particularly fx like EQ and compression, the more the overall quality starts to suffer - maybe like minidisk compression where big compression ratios can be acheived by removing certain 'inaudible' frequencies. Of course we all know that minidisks sound a bit crap, so those inaudible frequencies don't seem to be surplus after all. Same kinda thing with Reason I guess...
I've tried exporting 2496 wavs for every reason instrument, without compression or eq and importing the whole mess into Logic. It seems to help a bit, but it still seems to be 'flatter' than the stuff actually generated by vstis in logic.

Here's something to try (well, only if you're a sad anal geek like me) - export a loop of your fave kik from Reason and then do the same thing with Logic.

Or you could go to the pub, hang out with your mates, meet some girls. Maybe take up a sport. Sheeit I need to get out more :lol:
[/RAMBLE]

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<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="95%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 4 2004, 10:10 PM)</TD></TR><TR><TD id=QUOTE>I'm not sure Reason has a "dithering engine". Any hard info to corroborate the existence of this mythical beast? [/quote:3c4d9dc162]


I could well be talking complete arse - I guess 'mixer engine' would be a more appropriate description - the way it mixes several different audio streams to Master Left & Right - unless you have a lot of outputs (which I do now - just not in my computer yet ) :baa: .

J.

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</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 4 2004, 11:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here's something to try (well, only if you're a sad anal geek like me) - export a loop of your fave kik from Reason and then do the same thing with Logic. [/quote:3cd66d87de]
Hmmm...
 
Yes I have actually seen web pages with apparently "scientific" tests of the audio engine, which have shown reason is not sample accurate / ie has some effect on the sound

also i think the lack of dithering is maybe why its subjectively lower quality, isnt dithering supposed tobe a complex and wonderful thing? arent the advanced patented algorithms from apogee and whatnot the reason why the L1 or UV22 or whatever its called costs so much? And licenses for said patented algorithms part of the reason cubase et al cost more than reason et al?

Just prodding the fire really... as I havent used reason i've no empirical basis to think anything is true one way or the other (except for those web pages, but you can never trust statistics)
 
[geek]

Dithering has no effect on digital audio at anything above about -70db. With the kind of dynamic range that we are typically using [ie - not very wide - how many really quiet -65db passages are there in the average trance tune?] dithering is largely irrelevant. If anybody wants a layman's explanation of dithering I'd be happy to oblige.

Summing algorithms on the other hand - what J was alluding to - are crucial.

When your DAW takes all your individual tracks and instruments and fx and combines them all into one stereo waveform [assuming you're only using one stereo out on your soundcard..] - that is called "summing".

This I believe is where the differences occur. I am totally convinced that a mix - performed entirely inside the PC - done in Cubase SX sounds better than a mix done in Logic. No contest. The SX mix seems to have more space and depth - the Logic mix sounds flat and indistinct by comparison.
Not terribly scientific cos the mix could be influenced by the fact that I prefer the colour scheme of SX or the way the mixer is laid out - but still I think that SX's internal audio architecture is superior to Logic's. That said - it isn't an issue for me cos i never mix inside the computer - preferring instead to split the sounds up over 40 analogue outs and mix them on an analogue mixer. But thats another story.

I know I appear to be contradicting myself cos earlier I said that Reason sounds no different when Rewired or running standalone. The example I was imagining was with a single sine wave being reproduced in either instance. I believe a sine wave generated by Reason standalone and Reason Rewired would sound and look identical. Its when you start combining lots of different waveforms and summing them that discrepancies would occur.

So - going back to what J sed earlier - I have no doubt that stuff sounds better mixed in SX via Rewire as opposed to just mixing on Reason itself. The mixer is better - the EQ is better - the FX are better and I reckon the internal summing is better.

Phew!

[/geek]
 
[geek]

Ok, I've just done some tests. I tried to be as scientific as possible... if I've made any errors in methodology or analysis, please let me know. Bear in mind that the tests were vey simple and designed to highlight any differences in sound quality using Rewire, Reason and SX native exporting.

Created a 1-bar kick-drum loop in Reason using only Redrum. Created same loop in SX using same sample and Battery. Rewired Reason to SX. Had to change level of Battery to get SX and Rewired kicks to the same level (accurate to 0.1 dB). Exported 24-bit files of:

A: Reason loop through Reason mixer (all faders at default)
B: Reason loop direct to sound card (no Reason mixer)
C: Rewire loop through Reason mixer (all faders at default)
D: Rewire loop direct to SX (no Reason mixer)
E: Battery loop from SX

Tests and comparisons performed using Sound Forge v6.0:
Tried to compare each file by inverting data and mixing to generate a file containing the differences between the two sounds being compared; however timing inconsistencies between Battery and Reason exports made some comparisons impossible. Accuracy of musical timing was determined by placing markers at the beginning of each kick drum and counting samples between kicks.

Results:
Test 1 : A vs B : The difference file contains the loop at -121.41 dB, ie. there is a minute difference in output level when using the mixer compared to outputting directly to the soundcard from Redrum.

Test 2 : C vs D : Identical-looking difference file as above. Mixing the two difference files together (after inverting) produced noise at -146.29dB where each kick had been, with digital silence in-between.

Conclusions:
There is some difference when using Rewire as opposed to exporting directly from Reason, although to all intents and purposes this difference is negligible and would not, in my opinion, be audible. Not even to you, J. Also the test was unable to answer the question of which is better, SX or Reason; however given the scale of the difference (-146.29dB) I reckon it's not worth worrying about! :)

Timing was consistent when exporting sounds generated by Reason whether or not Rewire was used.

SX export of Rewired Reason sounds IS NOT SAMPLE ACCURATE when exporting events which start at the beginning of the exported region, ie. if you have a note on bar 2 and you export starting from bar 2, this first note will be out of time. All other export of native-generated Reason and SX sounds IS SAMPLE ACCURATE. However there are some questions worth asking of internal timebases here, as all Reason exports (whether using Rewire or not) were slightly faster than the native SX export, ie. at 140 bpm: Reason - 18,881 samples/beat; SX -18,901 samples/beat. The length of 1 beat at 140 bpm (44,100 Hz sampling rate) is calculated at 18900 samples. This implies that Reason runs slightly faster than SX (which is pretty damn accurate!!!!), and that using Reason via Rewire slightly speeds up the internal timebase of SX to match Reason's tempo.

[/geek]
 
Nice work Col. As I suspected.

Just out of interest - have you ever had it off with a lady?


:D
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 5 2004, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nice work Col. As I suspected.

Just out of interest - have you ever had it off with a lady?


:D [/quote:cb7fe5e952]
Heh heh heh...

Oh yes.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin OOOD @ Feb 5 2004, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Heh heh heh...

Oh yes. [/quote:d0e9062d0c]
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!


:lol:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 5 2004, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nice work Col. As I suspected.

Just out of interest - have you ever had it off with a lady?


:D [/quote:2e0e6cf269]
LMFAO!

Colin - I haven't whats it like?
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 5 2004, 09:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 5 2004, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nice work Col. As I suspected.

Just out of interest - have you ever had it off with a lady?


:D [/quote:e7913d3768]
LMFAO!

Colin - I haven't whats it like? [/quote:e7913d3768]
Well, I can tell you that having it off with a lady is OK, but you can't beat the real thing.


Colin, that was a devastatingly well documented experiment. Even I could understand that.

Did I read that right though - Ott actually admitting that SX was in fact superior to Logic in some small way?
 
yes i must say that did make my ears prick! but yeah i always wondered about things like the mixing engine, to route so many channels of audio into the master channel must take a distinct algorythmic process of some sort (???)
 
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