reason

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin OOOD @ Feb 5 2004, 01:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Had to change level of Battery to get SX and Rewired kicks to the same level (accurate to 0.1 dB). [/quote:9acc71d7d0]
Ah - here I think we have the reason why I could hear a difference when experimenting in the field (as opposed to exhaustively trying to find out) - the subjective perception of the change in gain (i.e. the old "play the same tune twice at slightly different -non-painful- volume settings and all human beings will say that the louder one sounds better" truism). Mea culpa.

Btw, nicely done! That shows some serious dedication (and I'm prepared to bet some serious lack of anything else to do ;) ).

J.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin OOOD @ Feb 5 2004, 01:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> SX export of Rewired Reason sounds IS NOT SAMPLE ACCURATE when exporting events which start at the beginning of the exported region, ie. if you have a note on bar 2 and you export starting from bar 2, this first note will be out of time. [/quote:fb8f9ba1ea]
to be fair i'd be fairly confident this is a cubase bug

i encounter the same thing with VSTs in nuendo - notes starting exactly at the left loop point will either disappear altogether when exported, or be out of time, or sound a bit weird and wrong.

I always just set the loop point a bit early :lol:
 
I should have added that the Reason kicks were sequenced using the Reason sequencer, not SX. There might be a difference in timing if sequencing using SX and exporting audio via Rewire... I would then expect the timing to be more accurate than when using the Reason sequencer... but I can't be arsed to run the tests again so, unless someone else has a spare hour, I doubt we'll ever find out! :)
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPsychodelicacy @ Feb 5 2004, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Btw, nicely done! That shows some serious dedication (and I'm prepared to bet some serious lack of anything else to do ;) ). [/quote:cb549a8ff6]
Oh, I had plenty else to do, J... I just really wanted to know, and I knew no-one else would be arsed to put the time in. :)

By the way, Ott told me he's running similar tests using Logic with a view to finding out the relative sound quality of the SX and Logic audio engines. Now this WOULD be interesting to find out. He's probably given up half way though, so let's all hassle him until he finishes the tests and reports... :P
 
Hehe

I dont know that nobody else would be arsed... I once did lengthy tests to analyse the 32 bit mixing engine of nuendo.

It was to prove a point with some twat who simply refused to believe me when I told him you can clip your channel faders to hell and back, and so long as you turn the master down an appropriate amount, nothing will be clipped. He was all like "oh well MR GENIUS pray tell me how the world is flat" - and what made it worse is this guy has ultra-expensive top-of-the-range Apogee A-Ds, which he was keen to boast about, despite apparently not even understanding the principles of digital audio. so I simply had to flatten him with science. :lol:

I exported a multitude of projects containing sine waves of various different frequencies - once at unity gain on both channels and master, then several times with channels turned right down and master turned right up, then several times with channels turned up right (and gain plugins inserted!) and master right down.

i'd then normalise, phase invert and mix the results, which always resulted in digital silence - thus proving that in a 32 bit engine it doesnt make a damn bit of difference whether you mix with faders below, around or even way above unity.

at this point things got kind of interesting...

because (without actually admitting to having been wrong in totally discounting my theories) he then altered his argument, claiming that it was a matter of degree. And since I'd only mixed about 4 channels with 12db of gain on each, this wasnt complex enough to notice the errors allegedly provoked by mixing above unity. With a real project of 40 channels, these errors would be significant - he assured me.

So, I investigated a bit harder.

I took my phase-inverted + mixed 'silence' files, and added 40db of gain to each. Now I could see they were not in fact TOTAL silence (altho SF's meters had previously not even flickered, thus making me think they were). They were somewhere between -96 and -105db. And, IIRC, the 'clipping channels' one WAS something 0.3db louder. So in theory, mixing with clipping channels WAS possibly having a negative effect on audio accuracy.

However... I looked at these results and concluded that even if this was the case:

- I never mix with channels constantly clipping by 12db - letting them occasional peaking to 0.3 is more like it
- Even after adding 40db to this "error noise", it was still quieter than the noise floor on the average project studio soundcard.
- Thus, even if the phenomena does exist, its not something i will ever be concerned about


At the time I appealed for users of Fruity, Reason, Logic, et al to run the same tests, because I was curious to see how the different engines stacked up.... nobody ever did tho.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (soliptic @ Feb 5 2004, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> At the time I appealed for users of Fruity, Reason, Logic, et al to run the same tests, because I was curious to see how the different engines stacked up.... nobody ever did tho. [/quote:2b24d40640]
I'm going to do the Reason vs Logic test I mentioned earlier. I'll post wavs later


and :goodthre: BTW
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Warwick Bassmonkey @ Feb 5 2004, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Did I read that right though - Ott actually admitting that SX was in fact superior to Logic in some small way? [/quote:c55604dffb]
It does sound a bit better, but by far the most persistent noise SX ever made for me was the deep thumping sound of my forehead smacking the desk as the fucker crashed for the 11th time in an hour...
so Logic wins just on the strength its reduced risk of serious head injuries

Heres a thing - I'm a registered Logic 4 PC user and I wanted to upgrade to v5 only to be told that all the upgrades had been sold, there were no more and never would be. I've phoned and emailed all the international distributors to see if they have any left, but so far no luck.

I don't WANT to continue using a crack of Logic5 cos its bound to be less stable, which was my experience of Logic4, and why I bought it in the first place.

So does anyone have Logic 5 PC to sell me?
 
by far the most persistent noise SX ever made for me was the deep thumping sound of my forehead smacking the desk as the fucker crashed for the 11th time in an hour...
so Logic wins just on the strength its reduced risk of serious head injuries


:dito: :dito: :dito:

SX nearly gave me a nervous breakdown. I prefered its interface and knew it inside out, but now I'm a fully converted emagic pimp. I get quite a few coreaudio glitches, but they're far less serious than a fully-fledged SX-style program crash.... plus I'm now a poncey mac twat, so there was only one choice really....

'fraid I don't have a spare copy of logic.... try ebay? You can get the logic "big box" package which contains logic audio (which is logic silver - ie "streamlined"), the ESXP24, the EVP73 and the ES1 for about £160 (try Boomerang Sounds, Manchestie). Its dual format mac/pc, but if you're used to platinum, you might find it a bit over simplified....
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 5 2004, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Heres a thing - I'm a registered Logic 4 PC user and I wanted to upgrade to v5 only to be told that all the upgrades had been sold, there were no more and never would be. I've phoned and emailed all the international distributors to see if they have any left, but so far no luck.
[/quote:8ba717b7d9]
That sucks. I am in exactly the same boat as you... spent my hard earned on Logic 4.

It's this kind of thing that let's me run certain cracked software with a totally clear conscience.

Wankers. :crazy:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 5 2004, 12:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
When your DAW takes all your individual tracks and instruments and fx and combines them all into one stereo waveform [assuming you're only using one stereo out on your soundcard..] - that is called "summing".
[/quote:de99189161]
So, from this, can I deduce that running audio tracks to separate audio outputs must lighten the load on the machine, since there's less summing involved?
 
I get the impression that running extra outputs takes more CPU load than summing... each output needs a set of buffers for a start. Anyone got any hard info on this?
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Warwick Bassmonkey @ Feb 5 2004, 11:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So, from this, can I deduce that running audio tracks to separate audio outputs must lighten the load on the machine, since there's less summing involved? [/quote:5a3e3ddda8]
No - there is a slight CPU loading for each set of outputs you use, but on a 2.5ghz machine not enough to be worried about.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 5 2004, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Warwick Bassmonkey @ Feb 5 2004, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Did I read that right though - Ott actually admitting that SX was in fact superior to Logic in some small way? [/quote:8423734ad2]
It does sound a bit better, but by far the most persistent noise SX ever made for me was the deep thumping sound of my forehead smacking the desk as the fucker crashed for the 11th time in an hour...
so Logic wins just on the strength its reduced risk of serious head injuries
[/quote:8423734ad2]
Exactly. Making records is arduous enough without your audio sequencer falling over every time you move the mouse. And - as mentioned earlier - what kind of "professional" digital audio workstation comes with a bug that makes it ignore anything on beat 1 - or just play it 200ms too late?

Beat ONE for God's sake!!

Fucking idiots.

Don't get me started on SX - I can feel the fleks of spit starting to form at the corners of my mouth. It does sound better than anything else when mixing internally, but even my best "mixed in the computer" mix sounds drab compared to the same tune mixed with my 4 cheap soundcards and "Fisher-Price" mixer.

And my SPX 90.

:unsure:

As for using cracks of Logic 5 - I think Emagic vacated the moral high-ground when they abandoned thousands of PC Logic users [...and PC Logic Control users! - HuxFlux is bloody HOPPING mad!!] to obsolescence, mere months after they had laid out £700 for Logic 5 and possibly £1000 for a Logic Control.

And just so you know, the cracks of Logic 5 which are commonly available use a flawless software emulation of the Logic 5 dongle [scanned from a real dongle], and are more reliable than legitimate versions, owing to the fact that they don't have to keep sending the many dongle calls that Logic uses to the dongle via the USB buss - which it shares with your midi interface and possibly your soundcard/webcam/modem/printer/scanner etc. etc. Its just one less chunk of Windows and PC architecture to deal with.

Not that I condone the use of cracked software of course...


:ph34r:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (soliptic @ Feb 5 2004, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Thus, even if the phenomena does exist, its not something i will ever be concerned about. [/quote:67dd748aad]
Thats the spirit.

After years of concerning myself with minute details and piffling audio artifacts, I have arrived at a place where i ask myself ONE question when finishing a mix;

"Will it give Tracy from Dagenham a nipple erection when she hears it in a club?"

If the answer is "yes" then I stick it down and send it off to be mastered.

There are no other questions worthy of consideration.

B)
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ott^ @ Feb 6 2004, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> "Will it give Tracy from Dagenham a nipple erection when she hears it in a club?"
[/quote:b1f8260cf8]
A most laudable intention Mr O....

The pisser here is that in this thread I tried to get an answer to my question "do my mixes sound shit because there's something wrong with Reason or with me?"

Bah. So it's me then. Bbbbugger.
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AlternateContinuum @ Feb 6 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The pisser here is that in this thread I tried to get an answer to my question "do my mixes sound shit because there's something wrong with Reason or with me?"

Bah. So it's me then. Bbbbugger. [/quote:16924483e8]
Don't worry about it. Quite frankly I can't help being utterly amazed everytime I fire up Reason... you just can't complain about a software that gives this much bang for your buck.

But... I still have no idea whatsoever what a subtractive synthesiser is. Let alone a graintable. If I move a knob and get a nice sound, it's luck.

A comb filter - wtf is that? I could have a guess - is it a notch filter with lots of notches, like a comb? Probably.

I just about understand what hi-pass and lo-pass filters do... but Envelope Generators and LFO's mystify me... something Flying Object?

As for a vocoder... phew... I know I want to know how to use one, but for me they always end up making the same sound... like the inside of an abandoned library... with thick pile carpeting throughout.

I completely understand what a compressor does and why it does it... but that doesn't mean I can hear what it does. Perhaps that's the idea.

I *do* know how to make something sound really shit with EQ. EQ beats the hell out of me.

I have quite good ears though... I know when something sounds bad, I just have a real hard time making it right. Which knob is it?

So I should probably stick to my plank of wood with four bits of cable stretched along it. The volume knob I can work with ease, bass set to maximum, mid set to...middle? Treble...err, who cares where that is, the bastards always roll it off anyway.

:smoke:
 
sorry about the messy thread guys
there was a bug with the system
the problem is now fixed
 
Back
Top