So I used the Pioneer DJM600/CDJ1000 combo on Saturday...

ChrisCabbage

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Have used the 600/800 combo before, but 'twas the first time I'd used the 1000.

Things I noticed:

Even though there was greater accuracy on the 1000s, it seemed a bit harder to lock-in the beats. That's possibly down to the difference in jog-wheel granularity between the 1000s and my older 500s'. I'm also used to (on the 500s) being able to have one finger on the cue buttons and another on the jog-wheel (opposite side). You have to push the 1000 jog wheel further to get the movement you can do with a small push on the 500s. Just needs a bit of getting used to I guess. I've heard people used to the 800/1000s saying the opposite about the 500s.

The 'wave display' was a bit off-putting in that it made me get a bit cocky, like - nah, I've got loads of time to cue the next track...

The 600 (which I cracked and bought), has a couple of definite down-sides. None of the fader curves are really ideal. I'll have to adapt a bit. One is a bit quiet in the middle, one is a bit noisy. On my old mixer, I could get a really smooth level on the track cross-over.

Will have to adapt my style a bit to compensate I reckon.

The effects section is a bit daft for tempo syching. To auto-lock for delays, you have to swich a selector to auto-bpm, select the source, get the lock, switch the source to the channel (I had my Nord Lead 3 on channel 1), select Echo effect and hit the effect enable button. A bit faffy I think. I might use external effects and grab the tempo for MIDI with my red-sound BPM grabber.

So - next question for me is: is it worth going for the 1000s? Ed (Tangent) was giving me the hard sell on Saturday night...
 

Rorymonster

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I was a bit confused about DJM 1000 and CDJ 600, but then realised you just got the numbers the wrong way around!
I've got the same configuration and love it. I'm used the fx and can use them very quickly, though ideally I would use a Kaoss pad. But then I didn't have much experience of CDJs before buying the 1000s, and having learnt to mix on vynil I wanted the best virtual-vynil you could buy (at the time).

Serious bummer, I think, is the fact that they don't play mp3 cds.
 

ChrisCabbage

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Mmm. Not sure about MP3s for big systems though. I really don't like MP3 in the high frequencies (unless it's a high bit rate).

If there was a non-lossy MP3, I might be more interested.

Actually, I'm not sure if there *is* a non-lossy MP3? I know some of the other codecs give that option. Anyone know?

Interestingley, the new Pioneers (CDJ200?) *do* support MP3.

Wonder if that will signal a 1000 upgrade or new model?

I might hold off the 1000 idea for a while (not least because it would cost me a grand and a half!).

I don't usually apply *subtractive* type effects to the material I DJ - I prefer to *add* filter sweeps etc. via a synth or two (usually my Nord Lead 3 and/or Moog Voyager). That's where support on the 600 is a *little* bit disappointing. It'd be better if the echo effect allowed a tap tempo whilst active.

Just means I'll probably have to resort to external effects (2 kbs mentioned earlier have no delays) - but at least I now have the 4 channels on this desk, which means I don't necessarily have to sub-mix .

Wonder if those Pioneer DVD decks will ever drop to sub-£1000....?
 

Fushion Julz

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So you bought a Pioneer DJM600, but don't like the effects or any of the crossfader curves?

Should have bought a A&H xone62....or a Formula Sound FSM400 (Formula Sound will effectively custom build a mixer for you with your spec of kills/boost and crossfader curves)...

Seems that no matter what is said on here (see many previous threads on Pioneer mixers and CDJs), you, along with many others, will continue to buy Pioneer. Hence they won't change the winning (for them) formula.

For the price of the CDJ1000, the Denon DN3000 or 5000s, the Numark CDX-1 and the Technics CDJ1200 are all better value and better decks....But they're not Pioneers!
Of course, you have to live with them so it is your choice (obviously), but since you have asked, I would advise against Pioneer on the reliability and after-sales (lack of) service...
 

JPsychodelicacy

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Fushion Julz said:
Seems that no matter what is said on here (see many previous threads on Pioneer mixers and CDJs), you, along with many others, will continue to buy Pioneer. Hence they won't change the winning (for them) formula.

OK, compared to the A&H or Formula mixers, the Pioneer mixers seem more like fancy bedroom jobs. But you'll never convince me that a Numark or even a Denon CDJ is better than the Pio equivalent, simply because Pioneer have copyrighted the best interface. (OK, so 'best' is subjective, but I know of practically no-one who prefers the Numark or Denon interface to the Pio).

J.
 

lurk

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the difference in jog wheel between 100's/500's and 800's/1000's can do your head in (especially when faced with them for the first time at a gig!); but it's all about what you're used to and practise makes perfect :Wink3:
personally i prefer the 100 to the 1000; it's like wearing an old pair of slippers (as i'm sure i've said before) but if i ever get to use the 1000 over a prolonged period of time then i'll probably change my mind.

i can't stand A & H mixers. the volume led display on each channel are useless and the change in eq's is not heard on the headphones. it's very important for the way i mix that i can hear this in the headphones.

i've had pioneer kit for years and they've been used at home, at house parties, at club parties and outdoor parties and i never had any problems with them. they are industry standard for a reason :Smile3:
 

ChrisCabbage

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Julz - I took your opinions on board (along with others) and made a decision.

Sorry it's not the decision you wanted, but it's really not your lookout.

Please don't talk down to me/us - might not be what you intend, but it's how you seem to be coming across there.

I've also talked to other people (professionals not on this board) who've been working with this kit as long as you or me, and they all gave the thumbs up for the 600.

The 600 will do the job I/we want, most DJs are familiar with it and I haven't had the problems with Pioneer service you mention in other threads.

The effects and cross fader curves are either not a real issue or they're something I need to get more familiar with.

None of this affected my performance on Saturday night, as Bez said to me "ever the consumate professional". Someone with less experience might not even have noticed the niggles I raised here.
 

Jon Kenobi

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lurk said:
the difference in jog wheel between 100's/500's and 800's/1000's can do your head in (especially when faced with them for the first time at a gig!); but it's all about what you're used to and practise makes perfect :Wink3:
personally i prefer the 100 to the 1000; it's like wearing an old pair of slippers (as i'm sure i've said before) but if i ever get to use the 1000 over a prolonged period of time then i'll probably change my mind.

I reckon you would Tom.....the 1000s feel soooooo right to me now


lurk said:
i can't stand A & H mixers. the volume led display on each channel are useless and the change in eq's is not heard on the headphones. it's very important for the way i mix that i can hear this in the headphones.

I have enjoyed the use of an extra eq on the midrange but I gotta agree wiv ya on the LEDs...absolutley no use whatsoever! (on the Xone62s that is.....the 92s look like they are more accurate, but all the clubs I've played at that have an A&H all had 62s)
Didnt notice a major prob with hearing in the headphones though (how bad did you find it?).....its an important thing for the way I mix too.


Purusha said:
Julz - I took your opinions on board (along with others) and made a decision.

Sorry it's not the decision you wanted, but it's really not your lookout.

Please don't talk down to me/us - might not be what you intend, but it's how you seem to be coming across there.

I've also talked to other people (professionals not on this board) who've been working with this kit as long as you or me, and they all gave the thumbs up for the 600.

The 600 will do the job I/we want, most DJs are familiar with it and I haven't had the problems with Pioneer service you mention in other threads.

The effects and cross fader curves are either not a real issue or they're something I need to get more familiar with.

None of this affected my performance on Saturday night, as Bez said to me "ever the consumate professional". Someone with less experience might not even have noticed the niggles I raised here.

Fair play Chris.....I also havent had any problems with the Pioneer kit (touch wood) and like you say if you are happy with it why change.
ever consumate professionals must notice ever consumate proffesionals then........always meticulous with his mixing is Bez.
 

Fushion Julz

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lurk said:
i can't stand A & H mixers. the volume led display on each channel are useless and the change in eq's is not heard on the headphones. it's very important for the way i mix that i can hear this in the headphones.

i've had pioneer kit for years and they've been used at home, at house parties, at club parties and outdoor parties and i never had any problems with them. they are industry standard for a reason :Smile3:

The leds on the A&H are pretty accuarate and, for use on a rig where overloading an input sounds appalling, then they are vastly superior to the Pioneer mixers (any of them)....
I've used Pioneers before and they sound crap...mostly because there is no telling when the DJ is starting to overload the outputs...
Also A&H mixers are fitted with Penny & Giles crossfaders...They last 5-6 times as long as the cheepy ones on almost all other mixers....

Pioneer is only a standard (in CD decks) because for some time they were the only mass-market manufacturer making any CD deck...Although Technics were the first in that field...
However, standard equipment does not imply best equipment (or even best for the price).
Most company cars are Vauxhall Vectras/Ford Focus....BUt it would be foolhardy to say that they are "better" than (say) a BMW or Mercedes just because they are a "standard".
 

Jon Kenobi

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the LEDs on the channels though Julz are only 4 blocks of colour (xone62).....what kind of indication of level is that? Dont get me wrong I have quite liked the added extra of some of the features on the 62 but I felt that that was a bit of a let down.
 

lurk

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julz, that is your point of view, and you are entitled to it. however, a friend of mine who runs a soundsystem in amsterdam, and who is every bit as knowledgable as you are when it comes to matters of running a soundsystem, likes the pioneer djm 500/600 to be used with it, precisely because it makes it easier for the djs to keep an eye on their levels and not overload the system.

For me, A & H mixers are cumbersome and over complicated in some respects yet, over simplified in others (the led displays for one, and the fact if you turn the bass eq down, for example, you do not hear that reflected in the headphones).

Pioneer CDJ's are the standard because they have the most user-friendly interface, they are relaible, they are robust, and they have models to suit most budgets. they are the bmw/mercedes of that type of product... with numark and denon being the vauxhall/ford equivilant.
 

Fushion Julz

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Purusha said:
Julz - I took your opinions on board (along with others) and made a decision.

Sorry it's not the decision you wanted, but it's really not your lookout.

Please don't talk down to me/us - might not be what you intend, but it's how you seem to be coming across there.

I've also talked to other people (professionals not on this board) who've been working with this kit as long as you or me, and they all gave the thumbs up for the 600.

The 600 will do the job I/we want, most DJs are familiar with it and I haven't had the problems with Pioneer service you mention in other threads.

The effects and cross fader curves are either not a real issue or they're something I need to get more familiar with.

None of this affected my performance on Saturday night, as Bez said to me "ever the consumate professional". Someone with less experience might not even have noticed the niggles I raised here.

Apologies, chap, I wasn't talking down to you...totally "on-the-line" me....

There aren't too many people (on this board, at least) who've been involved in sound engineering, studios or clubs for as long as I have (me=old git) and I don't know many pro hire companies that use Pioneer mixers....
In the last few years running Fushion, I've found that vinyl DJs are (usually) happy to work with whatever is provided (Technics 1200/1210s are the standard, but any Vestax or the Numark TTX-1 will do instead)...mixers included, although scratch jockeys prefer "battle" style mixers and the decks turned end-on (Numarks are best for that)...

CD jocks, though, will moan about every aspect of the provided equipment!
If we have CDJ1000s, they want 500s or Numarks, etc, if we have 500s they want 100s and so on...Fortunately, it is so easy to swap over decks without any breaks or glitches that we just use whatever the DJ brings...
Frankly, also, the sound quality differences are marginal, at best....
Mixers, though, are a different matter....I need to be sure that the DJs understand the max level to play to on the mixer...That level can be seen easily by the sound crew and that it is consistant across inputs, input types and varies with the real output (ie no post level attenuator). Few mixers actually do that properly and I've discarded various in the past because of their deficiencies....

Pioneer are, sorry to say, quite the worst "pro" equipment supplier I have ever needed to deal with (they are perfectly good when it comes to HiFi gear and I have a decent minidisc recorder/player made by them) when it comes to service/spares....
If you, or anyone else, can disprove that, then that is great....But £8.52 and a 3 week wait for a pitch slider knob cap for my CDJ500 II deck is a joke....
A similar slider cap needed for my Spirit Folio SX mixing desk ordered at the same time (from Harman) came (with 2 spares) for free the next day!
And it isn't as if you can say the Folio is vastly more expensive than the CDJs...It wasn't at all!

I could go on and repeat some of the other (sometimes comical) experiences dealing with Pioneer, but it's boring....
Even my (independent) service blokey has some not-very-kind things to say about Pioneer!

But, as you say, it was your descision and I hope you never have to experience the problems that can occur....
If you are using the decks/mixer principally at home, then they will be fine and a 3-6week lead time in fixing a fault will be inconvenient, but not disasterous....However, if you take the things out and about (especially if you run off generators) by a surgemaster board and always plug into that.
 

grokit23

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Fushion Julz said:
[Pioneer is only a standard (in CD decks) because for some time they were the only mass-market manufacturer making any CD deck...Although Technics were the first in that field...
However, standard equipment does not imply best equipment (or even best for the price).
Most company cars are Vauxhall Vectras/Ford Focus....BUt it would be foolhardy to say that they are "better" than (say) a BMW or Mercedes just because they are a "standard".

I had the nightmare task of buying CD decks for clubs back at the very beginning of the nineties, Denon were the company that produced the majority of stuff that was getting to the market that I saw and we kept on trying them and anybody else who produced CD decks. Trouble was they were absolutely shite for build quality and 'useability.' By the time the early pioneers came on the market they actually worked, the interface was more natural to djs and they were more reliable by a long, long way. Hence Pioneer ended up the industry standard because their products worked, lasted and felt right to the user.

Maybe Denon are now making a quality cd deck, but they stank for a decade along with Numark and most of the rest as well. I wasted thousands buying Denons and the rest, not mine luckily, but enough to say that I wouldn't use them for CD decks again for quite some time.
 

Fushion Julz

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The original CD decks by Denon and Numark were aimed at the wedding market DJs and not at the dance-music industry where DJs mix tunes...

Pioneer, OTOH, did the opposite as they started later...For quite some time Pioneer were the only makers of individual CD decks (as oppossed to draw and console type) and also one of the few to offer decent jog wheels on all their decks.

Pioneer CDJs are not bad bits of kit....They *do* work well and feel OK...However, much as Technics have done with the SL1200 series, they have stagnated the design and have been overtaken by the newer models from Denon (especially), Numark and some of the Stantons, too, in terms of features and build quality.

However, the issue with their after-sales remains...If a product is sold as a professional bit of kit at the premium price such kit demands, then the back-up should be of adequate standard...
 

turkeyphant

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Purusha said:
Mmm. Not sure about MP3s for big systems though. I really don't like MP3 in the high frequencies (unless it's a high bit rate).

If there was a non-lossy MP3, I might be more interested.

Actually, I'm not sure if there *is* a non-lossy MP3? I know some of the other codecs give that option. Anyone know?
It's all about FLAC.
 

norty303

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The leds on the A&H are pretty accuarate and, for use on a rig where overloading an input sounds appalling, then they are vastly superior to the Pioneer mixers (any of them)....
I've used Pioneers before and they sound crap...mostly because there is no telling when the DJ is starting to overload the outputs...

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the input on the mixer or the input to the rig there Julz but it's nigh on impossible to get distortion from the input on the 600 (or none that I could see on the scope anyway)

Likewise, if the attenuator is less than half then there doesn't seem to be any distortion on the outputs either even with all the reds lit.

I've been playing on 1000/800's more recently and to begin with I really hated the amount you have to move the jog wheel but I've adjusted now and to be honest i prefer the better control you get although I do still like my 100's (phew, that was close, they were listening see...) especially over the 500's which i just find a little bit too clunky and 'knife edge' with the jog wheel
 

Plank!

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I'm not sure whether you're referring to the input on the mixer or the input to the rig there Julz but it's nigh on impossible to get distortion from the input on the 600 (or none that I could see on the scope anyway)

What scope?
last time you mentioned this it was a visual comparison via soundforge. not the best way to look for distortion. Do you have any idea what % of distortion it takes to see a change on a sine wave? A lot more than you'd think, thats for sure!
One day when i can be arsed i'll set up a proper test and put the figures on here.
Pioneers pre-amps are crap, they overload and get crunchy after about +2dB (the 600 is worse then the 500 in this respect!)
Corrective "surgery" costs about £250 for the DJM500 and £300 for the DJM600, this reduces the gain at the pre amp input, therefore stopping the distortion.
If the pre amps were as clean as you suggest, why do SO many PA firms get the damn things turned down internally?

The distortion IS there, it sounds bloody awfull, i'm not the only one who hears it, other people notice it happening at exactly the same point I do.

Untill Pioneer sort out there quality I'll not be buying any of it.

Steve
 

norty303

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What scope?
last time you mentioned this it was a visual comparison via soundforge. not the best way to look for distortion. Do you have any idea what % of distortion it takes to see a change on a sine wave? A lot more than you'd think, thats for sure!

Yep, it was the sine tests. As i said it was based on what i could see - I'm going to do a listening test next time and see when distortion on the inputs starts to become noticeable, it may well be that my ears are just not good at listening for this sort of thing. I find a lot of these things are difficult to pick up unless you can A-B the kit with a reference.

I'd be very interested in seeing a proper test if you get round to it Steve. I'd like to see a lot more DJ mixers giving minimal positive EQ boost too, just what is the point of giving +9 or +12db boost?


BTW, what is the best way to measure distortion in a signal? Is it using a subtractive type thing where you remove the input signal from the output and get left with the distortion?
 
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