UK General Elections 05-05-05

[Full Lotus]

Any thoughts/wishes/hopes???? Are you going to vote? Which party do you think is the lesser evil??

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

I shall continue to vote Labour until the Tory Party is utterly dead and buried, but I seriously wish I didn't have to right now. All I can do is hope that the results will be such a narrow squeak that Blair will see the writing on the wall and bow out gracefully soon.

J.

 

[grokit23]

Lib-dems for me, I find New Labour to be too close to the Conservatives policy wise. Plus I find the whole "El Presidente Tony" attitude of Blair to be abhorrent, he's doing more to damage and sideline the parliamentary process than anyone in recent history.

 

[shamanix]

yeh i agree with grokit23 blair really needs to stand down and think of his own country for a change instead of thinking about bush!!!!!
i think the Leb dems might be allright a primeminster- only one way to find out!!!!!

 

[heva]

meh, agree with the sentiments above about El Presidente Tony. Amongst all the other questionable decisions made by the labour party during their term in office, there was actual vote-rigging going on during last years local elections (clicky) Smells to much like America to me. Yesh I'll be voting, but not labour thats for sure, and not conservative. Lib Dems I reckon for me.

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

I'm just afraid that voting LibDem might be effectively handing the country to the Tories. I don't want what happened in the States in 2000, where apathy among moderates allowed some really nasty proper right-wingers in, to happen here.

Ott'll probably show up and say there's no real difference, and for the most part he's right, but I remember the Tories' poisonous attitude to single mums, public services and the less well-off and I don't want to go back to that.

J.

 

[grokit23]

I think that you're being taken in by Labour's propaganda, they've been dropping that "a vote for lib-dem will get the torys back in" nonsense all over the place, because they're scared of losing to the lib-dems in so many areas. They're using the Torys as the bogeyman to keep people voting for them.

 

[Meijin]

'People, Peace, Planet' - brilliant election slogan - sums it up really, just a shame that the Greens persist in being uncharismatic with no hope of any electoral power (which of course they would devolve to people and the planet). Of course the situation here is VERY unlike that of Germany where the Greens and Socialists are in govt.

So why is the UK so unsympathetic to the Greens?
Before you launch into the unfairness of voting systems (do you really want 2nd best, don't think I want my vote diluted too much thank you very much STV) I think its the UK's utter beholdeness (is that a real word?) to the US - 51st state and all that - and the complete lack of identity with a european philosophical tradition (i.e., a leftist/marxist perspective).

HOWEVER - expect things to change soon, rapid climate change is absolutely dominating research at the moment in the ivory towers as is clean technology research. But, of course, if the tories get in expect this to peter out to nothing...

But a difficult choice this time round. I'm completely with JPsych on this BUT war is worse than slowly killing people thru creating poverty. I'm lucky, my MP resigned from govt because s/he didn't agree with the war - a vote for them is a confirmation from the electorate re. their stance....but I absolutely loathe and detest this lot for going to war and it has no basis in an ethical policy. Therefore, I'm still in a dilemma about whether to vote for them (it's the economy stupid AND the welfare state) or to stick to my moral guns and fight the tories on their policies should they get in (you know the score: demonstrating, non-violent direct action and dull stuff like that)

I guess, at the end of the day, that I should follow my marxist sympathies (altho' they're too anthropocentric for my liking) and see the welfare state as a ploy by liberal social capitalist states and parties to stave off revolution - that is, people don't change the ultimate sources and causes of exploitation because the welfare state is a way of 'buying' them off....

 

[martin_e]

I will vote for my present (LibDem) MP. It's an easy decision because he's already incumbent, I'd vote Lib Dem anyway and the Tories are the only competition to him in leafy (rich) Surrey. I like my MP - he replies whenever I write to him and gets Cabinet members to reply to things which are their fault (usually with a pompous and arrogant brush-off which can have me spitting bile for a couple of days ...)

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

I think that you're being taken in by Labour's propaganda, they've been dropping that "a vote for lib-dem will get the torys back in" nonsense all over the place, because they're scared of losing to the lib-dems in so many areas. They're using the Torys as the bogeyman to keep people voting for them.

Possibly, but the Grauniad's MORI polls are quite scary to look at right now.

I don't think it's nonsense for as long as the Tories are the primary opposition party, and until they're relegated to third party status, I will always believe a Tory election victory is plausible - we've got too many braindead right-wingers in this country for them not to be a serious threat.

J.

 

[Meijin]

YES - I agree JPsy BUT war is going beyond the normal boundaries of domestic politics - it is a continuation of politics by other means as Clausewitz said, and I think, in my heart, that the death and destruction of another society is beyond the 'normal' parameters of politics that we know and dislike...I'm preaching here but I don't think its a simple matter of centre-left versus far-right this time round, but a matter of (gulp) 'conscience' which in this case is related to HUMANITARIAN concerns and not the usual mundane matters of economics (and admittedly health)

How else will they learn?

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

How else will they learn?

So you're advocating potentially taking a mostly anti-war party of the centre-left (in terms of membership) out of power, which *will* lead to replacing them with a pro-war hard-right party - in order to teach the incumbent party's soon to be outgoing leader a lesson?

Can't follow the logic there, mate.

If the Lib Dems become the primary opposition in the next electoral cycle, I'll begin to rest a bit easier. It's not enough to say 'the Tories are finished'... I want to see a body.

J. (And preferably dance and piss on its grave)

 

[Meijin]

Yes indeed

but you might have a different view if it was your mother or brother or child that was dead...

sorry to bring you down

 

[grokit23]

So you're advocating potentially taking a mostly anti-war party of the centre-left (in terms of membership) out of power, which *will* lead to replacing them with a pro-war hard-right party - in order to teach the incumbent party's soon to be outgoing leader a lesson?

Can't follow the logic there, mate.

If the Lib Dems become the primary opposition in the next electoral cycle, I'll begin to rest a bit easier. It's not enough to say 'the Tories are finished'... I want to see a body.

J. (And preferably dance and piss on its grave)

That "mostly anti-war party" did a great job of paying nothing more than lip service to it's own members objections to the war and completely ignored the objections of the rest of the populace. Which is exactly the approach the conservatives would have taken, which leaves me thinking where's the difference?

You can't follow the logic because you're assuming that voting lib-dem = getting the conservatives back into power. Move away from that fallacy and logic starts working again. In my area the conservatives haven't a hope in hell of getting back in, lib-dems though, are scaring the crap out of labour and do stand an excellent chance. Bring on the resurgence of the three party system is what I say or at least let the consevatives get that bit closer to withering away completely.

Soon to be outgoing leader? What makes you think Blair is going to hand over the reins of power to anybody else in his party any time soon? He's running for prime minister again...

I don't want to vote lib-dem to punish Blair or to teach him a lesson, retribution has nothing to do wih it, it's just because I think he and his parties policies are not fit for the job.

 

[J'osh]

I shall continue to vote Labour until the Tory Party is utterly dead and buried, but I seriously wish I didn't have to right now. All I can do is hope that the results will be such a narrow squeak that Blair will see the writing on the wall and bow out gracefully soon.

J.

Too many people are still using this method of thinking which is what is keeping the labour/tory rivalry at the front of uk politics....... maybe if you took a chance at making the change to lib dems the tory party would get into power for 5 years, but maybe seeing the large lib dem swing now would mean that in 5 years time everyone that is in the position that you are now will finally make that move to vote lib dem, so in 5 years time we'd have a different government........

i think that your attitude of voting for labour just to stop the tories from getting into power is in actual fact the driving force that keeps these 2 very similar parties in power, you really are playing straight into the hands of the corrupt system that is brainwashing the masses..... it is completely bowing down to the fear tactics employed by both parties to ensure your vote to stop the other, when it seems obvious that these are tactics employed solely to keep any 3rd or 4th parties out of the race.........

but on the more optimistic side there's not really much point in voting anyway..... even the most honourable person can be easily corrupted when placed in a position of power

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

Yes indeed

but you might have a different view if it was your mother or brother or child that was dead...

sorry to bring you down

You're not bringing me down, but as I said, the Tories would have backed the war with even more gusto and those people would still be dead. Like it or not, the parties that supported the war are what we've got as potential governments - the Libs simply aren't there yet. Except that the Tories would have made it look like the whole country supported the war too.

Also, when are the Lib Dems going to realise that they will *always* be the third party until they start articulating what they *do* stand for as opposed to merely producing litanies of things that they are against?

What you have to realise is that our country is largely populated by Sun and Mail-reading bigots who don't care if we go blow some brown people up as long as they get their Corrie and Pop Idol and, of course, we don't let too many brown people in from the countries we're blowing up (or are blowing themselves up with the arms we sold them). This is the majority of our population, and it's sad, but true. Rampant consumerism and Thatcherite 'I'm alright, jack' politics is an addictive drug, and as a nation we need to wean ourselve off it slowly. The putrid Blair is unfortunately a necessry evil for now. Grokit, I genuinely believe Blair is on his way out as Labour leader, and the clout of his cult of personality within the party will diminish over time. If Labour win this one, I confidently predict we'll have a Prime Minister Brown within a year from now - methinks all it'll take is one more heart scare for Cherie to make her hubby stop.

Hopefully we'll get some genuinely progressive governance before our generation's lifespan is up - but it *has* to be done slowly - try to do too much too soon and we'll be back in the full-on Thatcherite Dark Ages before we know it.

J.

Just saw this:

Too many people are still using this method of thinking which is what is keeping the labour/tory rivalry at the front of uk politics....... maybe if you took a chance at making the change to lib dems the tory party would get into power for 5 years, but maybe seeing the large lib dem swing now would mean that in 5 years time everyone that is in the position that you are now will finally make that move to vote lib dem, so in 5 years time we'd have a different government........

OK, aside from the fact that the Tories would use those 5 years the way the US Republicans have, to pass laws that effectively cement their hold on power by rigging the system in their favour, the simple fact is that the Lib Dems don't have a strong enough position on the issues to hook the average voter - you need to say what you *do* stand for, not equivocate about what you don't, in order to win elections. Plus the fact that they're tarnished with the 'third party' image right now, and the reptile brain says no-one wants to back a loser.

I think you're forgetting that this country was pretty much on its last legs service-wise in the mid-late 1990s - that's the whole reason Labour won in the first place. The Tories had been deliberately underfunding public services and the NHS for nearly 2 decades, so that they'd have an excuse to privatise and dismantle them, and thus make a killing on behalf of their rich mates. Evidence has already surfaced that a Tory win will re-start that process in order to fund Howard's promised tax cuts for the rich. A Tory win would also distance us from Europe, both reducing our effectiveness there and weakening world opposition to the US's more nutty plans.

Five years of the Tories risks too much damage, even if the long-term aim is noble. I'm sorry, but the Libs have to persuade voters to make them the primary opposition themselves.

 

[Meijin]

whoever u vote for the govt gets in SOUNDS cool (like 2 cool 4 school) but the reality is far from pretty...outside of the issue of the war, this govt has been reasonably progressive, a bit puritanical with their work-ethic mind, but generally out to right major injustices (to an extent).

It's unfair to assume that there has been or is no real or substantial difference between the 2 major parties - without tiring myself to death (but I can elaborate if needs be) there IS an essential difference between left and right in this country: for example, labour would NEVER have made an issue over immigration or gypsies, or single mothers or any of the scapegoats currently popular...the tories have become in the last 20 years a party of the far right, who pander to populism and prejudice. They are not really conservatives of the old-school type at all....

But I still think the key problem is that labour are essentially committed to capitalism and 'growth' - domestically, they attempt egalitarianism but they won't stand up to international aggression because it costs too much - a very sobering reality. If they could ditch their complete addiction/commitment to capitalism as a desireable objective and means to achieve the good society then perhaps they wouldn't be in the pockets of the US to such a degree

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

But I still think the key problem is that labour are essentially committed to capitalism and 'growth' - domestically, they attempt egalitarianism but they won't stand up to international aggression because it costs too much - a very sobering reality. If they could ditch their complete addiction/commitment to capitalism as a desireable objective and means to achieve the good society then perhaps they wouldn't be in the pockets of the US to such a degree

The problem is that the majority of Western society - not just political parties have embraced capitalism and rejected socialism as an outmoded concept because they are governed by their love of consumer goods and naked self-interest.

Discuss.

J.

 

[Meijin]

Capitalism = extraction of surplus value from the worker and hence exploitation

extraction of suplus value from the worker = exploitation and alienation from their essence

worker then purchases consumer good in order to regain their essence and attempt to reintegrate with an identity

did I pass?

 

[sqoo]

I would vote Green, but will vote LibDem thx to our unfair voting system. I cannot under any circumstances vote for Labour. My slimy noo labor MP, David Lepper replies with patronising standard letters and wiggles out of any direct answers. I suppose at least he votes in a fairly rebelious way.

I would like to have the right to vote 'none of the above', I think that would show that is dislike of the system not apathy that keeps turnout low