UK General Elections 05-05-05

[JPsychodelicacy]

True mate. But that fiddling is obscene. You aren't "unemployed" if you don't have a job but your dog's mum's dad's mum's owner is employed (and yes i am being facetious).

Better than the American system, where you fall off the unemployment figures if you've been unemployed for longer than 6 months!

Just saying vote labour cos u don't want the conservatives in is just plain flawed ...

Nationally however it is a two-horse race, and will be until our archaic first-past-the-post electoral system is reformed. Your point on tactical voting in T.Wells is very true though.

J.

 

[Goz]

People have short memories, it was the Tories/Conservatives who started 'fiddling' the figures, and Tory Blur's New Labour have only consolidated the situation......Stats can prove anything if you want them too.....

Never said that it was labour that started the fiddling only that they WERE/ARE fiddling and as such the particular stat wasn't exactly reliable

But still ... worth pointing out

 

[Stuoolong]

What we DO need to fear is the utilisation of viruses as a means of capital accumulation and big business as with genetic modification, for they (the viruses) are not to be trusted....

or as a weapon.

 

[grokit23]

- Put some serious funding into the NHS (Waiting lists at their lowest since 1987)
- Lowest inflation for 30 years
- Lowest unemployment since the '70s
- Introduced the minimum wage (needs to be higher, but at least it's there)
- Reduced class sizes in primary schools (they still need to reform the national curriculum though - and hopefully do away with those awful league tables)

That serious funding for the NHS has unfortunately gone into middle management bureaucracy mostly and not into services where it was needed. The fact that waiting lists have gone down dramatically has got more to do with the way that they've changed the counting methods for the stats. Talk to somebody who works in the NHS, preferably somebody who has for quite some time and you'll get a very different picture of what's going on.

The same goes for unemployment figures, see other peoples posts.

They may have reduced primary school class sizes (debatable, see below), but they have also failed to do much for secondary schooling at all, they got rid of the last vestiges of the university grant scheme and have continually been pushing the astoundingly bad "Excellence in cities" scheme, even though it seems to cause a drop in standards all over the place.
The average UK state school primary class now has 26.8 pupils, compared to an OECD average of just 22.1. Of the major developed countries, only Korea and Japan have bigger classes in both primary and secondary schools.

Last year, English primary schools lost 800 teachers who were not replaced and class sizes increased. Thousands more infants (5-7 year-olds) are being taught in classes over 30.

Additional funding for education was used in pet projects (Excellence in Cities and the pushing of PFI schools projects) and they spent £22 million on management consultants over the past five years and £200 million a year on the OFSTED inspection body.

Far from perfect, but a lot better than the alternative (which is for the moment, only the Tory party).

J.

broken records should be thrown out or made into flower pots :p

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

That serious funding for the NHS has unfortunately gone into middle management bureaucracy mostly and not into services where it was needed. The fact that waiting lists have gone down dramatically has got more to do with the way that they've changed the counting methods for the stats. Talk to somebody who works in the NHS, preferably somebody who has for quite some time and you'll get a very different picture of what's going on.

JPsychodelicacy:[Works for the NHS IT programme]

I have as little time for middle-management as the next lefty, but at the same time the cash injections do need to be handled correctly, otherwise you just get accused of throwing money at the problem without any idea of a solution to use the money on. Take a look at the Prodigy system, which has had absurd amounts of money thrown at it, yet failed to produce a decent useful product for 6 years.

Yes it would be nice if that money could be used to hire more nurses or improve the lot of the ones we have, and hopefully one day it will come.

But I tell you for free that it won't happen under the Tories, who like it or not are the primary opposition party and again, are the only current alternative.

The same goes for unemployment figures, see other peoples posts.

Again, the Tories started it, and will make it worse if they get back in - which *will* happen if Labour lose this election.

Last year, English primary schools lost 800 teachers who were not replaced and class sizes increased. Thousands more infants (5-7 year-olds) are being taught in classes over 30.

Additional funding for education was used in pet projects (Excellence in Cities and the pushing of PFI schools projects) and they spent £22 million on management consultants over the past five years and £200 million a year on the OFSTED inspection body.

JPsychodelicacy:[His Mum's a primary school teacher]

The whole primary system needs reforming - the national curriculum and testing of 7-year-olds simply doesn't work. That's going to take time, and it certainly won't happen under the Tories, who are the prime architects and instigators of the National Curriculum and League Tables.

Also, I don't see Japanese pupils doing so badly.

Secondary education. Again - the Tory alternative (seconding of the best and brightest into the private school system) would be far worse and if you vote against Labour in this election cycle, it is what you will get.

Again, without PFI where are you going to get the money without direct tax increases that would see them booted out of office faster than you can say Rob Jackinson?

Use of private money stinks, but after 18 years of deliberate undermining and underfunding there is simply *no alternative*. We are paying for the excesses of the '80s and will be for some time.

broken records should be thrown out or made into flower pots :p

Again, show me that voting against Labour on a national level does not automatically ensure a Tory victory and I'll agree with you.

Let's get this straight. The Tories are the second party - fact. In the current first-past-the-post system, if Labour lose, the Tories win - fact. A LibDem victory in 2005 is a pipe dream and will always be a pipe dream until they become primary opposition - fact.

I'd rather have a centre-left party in charge than the hard-right alternative that is currently (note I say currently... it may change in a few years) the only alternative.

 

[Pheadra]

All politicians fiddle, but it is at least going in the right direction IMO... We're not haemorraging jobs the way the States is, for example.

J.

Joe, they cover up the unemployed with the new deal, if your on new deal then your not classed as unemployed... as your being forced to do 6 weeks slave labour for your JSA every other 6 weeks...

I mean there are people out there who blag it and are on JSA because they dont want to work, and know how to get out of new deal, but for the majority of jobseekers, the whole new deal thing is actually very humiliating...

Well i found it so when I was on JSA....

Basically if your unemployed and under 25 and claiming JSA then its obligitory to do new deal.

 

[onestone]

Here's the latest from my Labour MP. His poster saying vote labour has a message on the back which says "A Personal Message to Liberal Democrat voters" and goes on to imply that this area is a two-horse race and basically Lib Dems should vote Labour so that the Tories don't come back in.

In my opinion they are scared that there will be a huge swing to the Lib Dems and they are playing these scary tactics.

 

[Barclay (Dark Angel)]

QUOTE=JPsychodelicacy]JPsychodelicacy:[Works for the NHS IT programme]

Let's get this straight. The Tories are the second party - fact. In the current first-past-the-post system, if Labour lose, the Tories win - fact. A LibDem victory in 2005 is a pipe dream and will always be a pipe dream until they become primary opposition - fact.

I'd rather have a centre-left party in charge than the hard-right alternative that is currently (note I say currently... it may change in a few years) the only alternative.[/QUOTE]

Labour party - centre left? Not from where I'm looking it's not. Centre right - maybe... and pretty much as authoritarian as you're going to get. Even the Tories have reservatioins about ID cards, which to add insult to injury, you'll have to pay to get.

And then there's this nonsense about voting Lib Dem resulting in a Tory government. I'm willing to bet that if we had a voting system worthy of the name in this country, we'd have a Lib Dem Govt.

Talk about negative voting! Don't vote for the policies you believe in, vote to keep out the party you really hate. Can't you see how atrocious that is? It's the biggest possible indictment of the 1st past the post system - a system endorsed by both the Tories and the Labour party. Be honest. It's corrupt as f*ck.

You'll *never* get the government you want if you constantly vote tactically. Instead you'll get the government you deserve.

This election stinks. On the one hand Blair is a war criminal, and on the other, Howard is a racist whose policies are actively stirring up race hatred. (At a Psy-Trance party this weekend I heard a black guy having a go at a South African because he was a South African, and in another incident, a white guy calling a black guy a "kaffa". That has NEVER happened before in my hearing at any Psy-Trance party I've ever been to.)

I wouldn't vote for either of these low lifes, even if you paid me a million.

Hugs,

Barclay

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

Labour party - centre left? Not from where I'm looking it's not. Centre right - maybe... and pretty much as authoritarian as you're going to get. Even the Tories have reservatioins about ID cards, which to add insult to injury, you'll have to pay to get.

They support the NHS, and at least pay lip service to keeping the majority gainfully employed - makes them centre-left in my book. I'm not afraid of the ID card system simply because it isn't going to work. The Tories don't need ID cards because their solution is to put every lawbreaker in prison. I'd rather have an ID card than be banged up for smoking a joint, ye ken?

And then there's this nonsense about voting Lib Dem resulting in a Tory government. I'm willing to bet that if we had a voting system worthy of the name in this country, we'd have a Lib Dem Govt.

Talk about negative voting! Don't vote for the policies you believe in, vote to keep out the party you really hate. Can't you see how atrocious that is? It's the biggest possible indictment of the 1st past the post system - a system endorsed by both the Tories and the Labour party. Be honest. It's corrupt as f*ck.

I totally agree! But as a paid-up member of the 'reality-based community' I have to work within the system that we've got. I'd be the first to say that the system stinks and needs reforming, but as long as the Tories are the second or first party it simply isn't going to happen. Michael Howard's racist rhetoric resonates with the 50% of the country who are of what statisticians call 'below average intelligence'. He uses fear of the other to encourage this 50% to vote for him, much as George Bush has done in the US. As a rule, the people of this country take a slightly more active interest in politics than their American cousins, but I'm seeing disturbing signs of the apathy and indifference that handed Bush the White House in 2000 over here.

You'll *never* get the government you want if you constantly vote tactically. Instead you'll get the government you deserve.

As I said - for the moment I'll take the lesser of two evils until it's possible to enact some real change. Under the Tories the whole system will regress back to the point we were at in 1997, eventually handing us another Black Wednesday that we won't be able to pull out from this time (note how many economists are saying that the US economy is heading for a trainwreck at a rate of knots).

I'll take slow movements in the direction of social justice over a return to absolute Thatcher/Powellism any day of the week.

J.

 

[trancetheory]

...In the words of a wise little boy....Its alwayz a choice between a Doosh bag, and a Turd Sandwich...

 

[Barclay (Dark Angel)]

Re Authoritarianism and ID Cards.

Joe, you say that you don't mind ID cards because they don't work, and go on to suggest the Tories don't need ID cards because they'll bang everyone up.

To which I say, devil's advocate mode, that won't work. In fact ID cards have a far higher chance of working than a massive prison building programme that won't be anywhere near completed by the time of the next general election - by which time, if the Labour party's re-elected, we'll have ID cards with god knows what information on them.

You go on to say, "but I'm seeing disturbing signs of the apathy and indifference that handed Bush the White House in 2000 over here".

I see it differently. It's not solely apathy and indifference that will make for a poor turn-out, but disgust, disillusionment, and anger with the entire political system in this country too. The fact is that most people are effectively disenfranchised, and their views ignored. Just look at the Iraq farce. The only party that listened was the Liberal party - the very party you say we shouldn't be voting for. Politicians of all the main parties aren't trusted, and with very good reason. Yet another reason (amongst many) why people won't vote.

Further on the point as to whether voting Liberal will allow the Tories to win.... You can use that argument at every General Election from here to doomsday, and the system will never change. How much better to try to force change now, rather than forlornly hope for change from god knows where. Sure as hell, the other 2 big parties won't change the system on their own. Look at Blair, he couldn't even keep his promises on reforming the House of Lords, a legislative chamber that disgracefully remains unelected and unaccountable.

I think it's just as possible that we'll have a hung Parliament if people vote Lib Dem, as it is that we'll have an outright Tory or a Labour victory. Maybe the country will be the better for it, 'cos an outright majority for Labour or Conservative is just about as satisfactory as a fart in the wind, and many many times more dangerous.

Hugs,

Barclay

 

[onestone]

I think it's just as possible that we'll have a hung Parliament if people vote Lib Dem, as it is that we'll have an outright Tory or a Labour victory. Maybe the country will be the better for it, 'cos an outright majority for Labour or Conservative is just about as satisfactory as a fart in the wind, and many many times more dangerous.

If everyone who is disillusioned by the two "main" parties were to vote for the alternative LibDems, I don't see what the problem is - at worst there will be a hung parliament as Barclay says and it won't matter who is ruling. Don't those words bring a tear of joy to your eyes "a hung parliament". To me a hung parliament is closer to democracy than one with a party with a big majority.

So who is disillusioned and will change their vote - I heard on Radio Four that the women's vote is changing towards the LibDems, the young are certainly not interested in the blues and washed out pinks and I was just watching Channel 4 news with Bliar visiting some Northern working area and the booing was beatiful.

The discussion has been about tactical voting or not. I have another problem. My Labour MP has voted against the Serbian bombings, the Iraq war and everything else that scum-boy has dropped on us - on this morning's news, he was supporting the action of the MP, who went to the LibDems. I support my MP's views but I simply cannot give Bliar my vote - I'm looking for his email to try to persuade him to defect.

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

To which I say, devil's advocate mode, that won't work. In fact ID cards have a far higher chance of working than a massive prison building programme that won't be anywhere near completed by the time of the next general election

They won't bother waiting till they've built more just to up the prison population, they'll be quite happy to squish the poor and destitute in the existing institutions, Victorian-style.

by which time, if the Labour party's re-elected, we'll have ID cards with god knows what information on them.

God knows what information, true, but the cards won't be useable as a measure for checking up on people... they've vastly overestimated the ability of the system they've designed to cope, and you can pretty much guarantee that they'll give the contract to build the system to Crapita, which means that the chances of it working go from "minute" to "piss all". This is why a lot of IT bods are against it, not becuiase it's an infringement of personal freedom so much as it's a complete waste of time and money.

I see it differently. It's not solely apathy and indifference that will make for a poor turn-out, but disgust, disillusionment, and anger with the entire political system in this country too. The fact is that most people are effectively disenfranchised, and their views ignored.

Same as it ever was. We can effect minimal change in this day and age, and the media are going full-tilt at telling us we're more disenfranchised than we are... for the simple fact that the fewer that vote, the easier the media moguls find it to game the system by getting the 50% of those below average intelligence to vote against their best interests (Tory, UKIP or BNP).

Just look at the Iraq farce. The only party that listened was the Liberal party - the very party you say we shouldn't be voting for.

And Kennedy went from being totally against, to cautiously backing the war the second the troops set foot on Iraqi soil. A lot of people seem to be forgetting this - he hedged his bets on whether the war would devolve into a quagmire or not, rather than take the principled stand he is now claiming.

Politicians of all the main parties aren't trusted, and with very good reason. Yet another reason (amongst many) why people won't vote.

Same as it ever was.... :rolleyes:

Further on the point as to whether voting Liberal will allow the Tories to win.... You can use that argument at every General Election from here to doomsday, and the system will never change.

Nope, only until the Tories are the third party. If what you say is true, then the LibDems should be significantly up on the Tories this time round, and come the election after this one they might *just* have a snowball's chance in hell of forming a coalition government. We need to break the back of the Conservative Party befiore this happens though.

How much better to try to force change now, rather than forlornly hope for change from god knows where.

Yup, those windmills are sure looking menacing today...

Sure as hell, the other 2 big parties won't change the system on their own. Look at Blair, he couldn't even keep his promises on reforming the House of Lords, a legislative chamber that disgracefully remains unelected and unaccountable.

For all they are, they've managed to squish some really rotten NIMBY-courting legislation in their time.

I think it's just as possible that we'll have a hung Parliament if people vote Lib Dem, as it is that we'll have an outright Tory or a Labour victory. Maybe the country will be the better for it, 'cos an outright majority for Labour or Conservative is just about as satisfactory as a fart in the wind, and many many times more dangerous.

And the country will get bugger-all done and end up stagnating... great.

Handing Blair his arse will not bring those Iraqis back to life, but it will make the world a far more dangerous place for future generations here. This is short-sighted, one-issue politics at its worst.

J.

 

[grokit23]

Handing Blair his arse will not bring those Iraqis back to life, but it will make the world a far more dangerous place for future generations here. This is short-sighted, one-issue politics at its worst.

J.

As is your regurgitation of labours campaign message that lib dems stand no chance, you're voting the tories in.

 

[Goz]

Well put Grokit

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

As is your regurgitation of labours campaign message that lib dems stand no chance, you're voting the tories in.

This is not mere regurgitation, it's the painful truth, and I stand by it - I felt the same way in 2001, despite feeling let down by Blair on a number of fronts, chief among them his cosying up to the Dauphin George II.

No party in the history of Parliament has leapfrogged from third party to being able to form a government in a single electoral cycle.

I say it again: The Lib Dems cannot and will not win this election. It is too soon to count the Tories out. If Michael Howard is PM come May 6th, I hope you can live with yourself.

J.

 

[Goz]

No party in the history of Parliament has leapfrogged from third party to being able to form a government in a single electoral cycle.

So .. just out of interest ... why is voting lib dem voting to let conservatives in and not stealing votes from them?

 

[JPsychodelicacy]

So .. just out of interest ... why is voting lib dem voting to let conservatives in and not stealing votes from them?

Because your average Tory voter is a self-centered wealthy NIMBY, and not all that prone to change - most Labour/LibDem voters tend to actually give a damn about social justice (or at least pay lip service to it).

To put it another way, how many former Labour voters that you personally know are looking at abstaining or voting LibDem this time? I'm prepared to bet it's quite a few more than the number of Tory voters looking to do the same. Certainly in my case I've noticed this.

Apologies if it looks like I'm just repeating dogma, but I am genuinely scared.

J.

 

[Goz]

TBH Joe you are right about the CORE conservative voters .. but the same coudl be said about the CORE labour voters. Its those floaters (hehe ... sorry .. ahve to bring it down to my mental level ) in between ... convince enough of them to vote lib dems and we could have a coalition in government. Taking the blanket attitude you show is pointless and its because of narrow minded people such as yourself (on this subject) that it continues as it does ... Why nto make a change and force the ruling party to operate without a majority or form a coalition with another party ... thats when we start getting the interesting changes to the way the country is run ...

 

[canyouhearthegoblins]

:sad: despite a degree and nuff newspaper reading i dinny understand all this
must be the blond hair